5 ms·

A lot of hard work, very little financial certainty. I don't know if word that as that mental health, anymore than I'd call someone who doesn't have enough food

A lot of hard work, very little financial certainty. I don't know if word that as that mental health, anymore than I'd call someone who doesn't have enough food, to be having poor physical health. When we can narrow the term down to something specific, we should.

sheepmullet 9y ago
> someone who doesn't have enough food, to be having poor physical health. If you can get all the food you want but you choose to go down a path where you are likely to starve... what does that say about your mental health?
- wolfgke 9y ago
  > If you can get all the food you want but you choose to go down a path where you are likely to starve... what does that say about your mental health? To me it says that the respective person is an idealist deep in his/her heart.
  - sheepmullet 9y ago
    If that is the case then do you think there is even a problem? I personally don't think it is the case. I think the rate of people dropping out of academia is a good indicator that something is not quite right. Especially as these postgrads are dropping out well short of "making a difference". That so many people continue to go into the system despite this shows a clear lack of judgement.
    - projektir 9y ago
      > That so many people continue to go into the system despite this shows a clear lack of judgement. "Let me use this moment to feel better than those other people." What is "lack of judgment", exactly?
      - sheepmullet 9y ago
        > "Let me use this moment to feel better than those other people." Or how about let's make sure at risk people are fully informed? > What is "lack of judgment", exactly? Feeling like you have wasted 5-10 years of your life - some of your best years. The HN community thinks that intelligent people make highly informed decisions - and for many it's simply not true.
        grzm 9y ago
        > "The HN community thinks that..." As one HN member to another, please don't do this. HN members are not some monolithic block; they hold diverse opinions. You yourself are a member of this community. Just as you disagree with the opinions of some members, they may disagree with yours. And on other opinions you may even agree! Just present your reasons without assuming or generalizing the opinions of others. Your statement works equally well as "Some think that intelligent people make highly informed decisions...."
        sheepmullet 9y ago
        > As one HN member to another, please don't do this. There is nothing wrong with generalizing - in fact it is normal and healthy behavior. > Your statement works equally well as "Some think that intelligent people make highly informed decisions...." No it doesn't. That's not at all what I was trying to say - I was summarizing the general sentiment, in my experience, of the current HN community. Look I could be wrong - but in that case please debate the point.
        grzm 9y ago
        > "in that case please debate the point" You're the one making an argument that your generalization is warranted: it's on you to back it up. I'm not sure how you'd be able to do so. It's not 100%, unless you yourself hold this opinion. Everyone except you? I have a hard time believing that. I've seen plenty of comments (perhaps not in this thread) about irrationality and bias in human behavior regardless of intelligence (some I've made myself). Most? How do you quantify this? What percentage? How are you going to support it? If you do have some kind of quantitative data, I'd very much like to see it. It would certainly be interesting and a good starting point for a substantive discussion. Such generalizations do no one any good, other that reducing people to some caricature that weakens your own point. What you describe as "normal and healthy behavior" is what supports the tribalistic behavior that leads to polarization. That's certainly not healthy.
Osmium 9y ago
> A lot of hard work, very little financial certainty. Yes. It's exhausting. I'm several years past post-grad, have had a succession of one-year contracts, doing work I love and believe in and I genuinely believe has a lasting value, but the lack of any kind of security sucks. I'm rapidly approaching a wall where by I have to either go for tenure track/something more managerial/teaching or leave for something hopefully more lucrative in the private sector. Sadly continuing with my present (rewarding, interesting) work is not an option even though after I leave, the work will still exist and will still have to be done by someone. But the academic system, such that it is, is a conveyor belt, and you gotta move on or get off. And I got lucky too. My postgrad experience was short, went relatively well, and I'm well paid by academic standards now. I'm constantly surprised I made it out ok given the amount of stress it generated. I know many people who had much more miserable experiences in postgrad.
- crispyporkbites 9y ago
  Not excusing the system, but for 99% of the population rewarding, interesting work is an oxymoron
  - Osmium 9y ago
    Yes, to be clear, I'm certainly grateful I find (some aspects) rewarding -- if I didn't, it would be very irrational to continue, because it has very little else going for it. Academia is so dysfunctional right now. It's parasitic off the drive of young people who just want to make the world a little better. It's very unfortunate it's ended up this way.
    - sjg007 9y ago
      Startups can be the same way.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > Not excusing the system, but for 99% of the population rewarding, interesting work is an oxymoron This is one of the reasons why I often ask myself why the suicide rate is so low in society.

sheepmullet 9y ago

> someone who doesn't have enough food, to be having poor physical health. If you can get all the food you want but you choose to go down a path where you are likely to starve... what does that say about your mental health?

wolfgke 9y ago
> If you can get all the food you want but you choose to go down a path where you are likely to starve... what does that say about your mental health? To me it says that the respective person is an idealist deep in his/her heart.
- sheepmullet 9y ago
  If that is the case then do you think there is even a problem? I personally don't think it is the case. I think the rate of people dropping out of academia is a good indicator that something is not quite right. Especially as these postgrads are dropping out well short of "making a difference". That so many people continue to go into the system despite this shows a clear lack of judgement.
  - projektir 9y ago
    > That so many people continue to go into the system despite this shows a clear lack of judgement. "Let me use this moment to feel better than those other people." What is "lack of judgment", exactly?
    - sheepmullet 9y ago
      > "Let me use this moment to feel better than those other people." Or how about let's make sure at risk people are fully informed? > What is "lack of judgment", exactly? Feeling like you have wasted 5-10 years of your life - some of your best years. The HN community thinks that intelligent people make highly informed decisions - and for many it's simply not true.
      - grzm 9y ago
        > "The HN community thinks that..." As one HN member to another, please don't do this. HN members are not some monolithic block; they hold diverse opinions. You yourself are a member of this community. Just as you disagree with the opinions of some members, they may disagree with yours. And on other opinions you may even agree! Just present your reasons without assuming or generalizing the opinions of others. Your statement works equally well as "Some think that intelligent people make highly informed decisions...."
        sheepmullet 9y ago
        > As one HN member to another, please don't do this. There is nothing wrong with generalizing - in fact it is normal and healthy behavior. > Your statement works equally well as "Some think that intelligent people make highly informed decisions...." No it doesn't. That's not at all what I was trying to say - I was summarizing the general sentiment, in my experience, of the current HN community. Look I could be wrong - but in that case please debate the point.
        grzm 9y ago
        > "in that case please debate the point" You're the one making an argument that your generalization is warranted: it's on you to back it up. I'm not sure how you'd be able to do so. It's not 100%, unless you yourself hold this opinion. Everyone except you? I have a hard time believing that. I've seen plenty of comments (perhaps not in this thread) about irrationality and bias in human behavior regardless of intelligence (some I've made myself). Most? How do you quantify this? What percentage? How are you going to support it? If you do have some kind of quantitative data, I'd very much like to see it. It would certainly be interesting and a good starting point for a substantive discussion. Such generalizations do no one any good, other that reducing people to some caricature that weakens your own point. What you describe as "normal and healthy behavior" is what supports the tribalistic behavior that leads to polarization. That's certainly not healthy.

Osmium 9y ago

> A lot of hard work, very little financial certainty. Yes. It's exhausting. I'm several years past post-grad, have had a succession of one-year contracts, doing work I love and believe in and I genuinely believe has a lasting value, but the lack of any kind of security sucks. I'm rapidly approaching a wall where by I have to either go for tenure track/something more managerial/teaching or leave for something hopefully more lucrative in the private sector. Sadly continuing with my present (rewarding, interesting) work is not an option even though after I leave, the work will still exist and will still have to be done by someone. But the academic system, such that it is, is a conveyor belt, and you gotta move on or get off. And I got lucky too. My postgrad experience was short, went relatively well, and I'm well paid by academic standards now. I'm constantly surprised I made it out ok given the amount of stress it generated. I know many people who had much more miserable experiences in postgrad.

crispyporkbites 9y ago
Not excusing the system, but for 99% of the population rewarding, interesting work is an oxymoron
- Osmium 9y ago
  Yes, to be clear, I'm certainly grateful I find (some aspects) rewarding -- if I didn't, it would be very irrational to continue, because it has very little else going for it. Academia is so dysfunctional right now. It's parasitic off the drive of young people who just want to make the world a little better. It's very unfortunate it's ended up this way.
  - sjg007 9y ago
    Startups can be the same way.
- wolfgke 9y ago
  > Not excusing the system, but for 99% of the population rewarding, interesting work is an oxymoron This is one of the reasons why I often ask myself why the suicide rate is so low in society.