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So because of events a thousand years ago the Israelis should be immune from criticism? Give me a break. Israel is an apartheid state and sensible people don't

by Mizza 9y ago

So because of events a thousand years ago the Israelis should be immune from criticism? Give me a break. Israel is an apartheid state and sensible people don't like that. And the right of "ancestral homeland" should be respected for Israelis, but not Europeans? etc. In a rational society, any and all groups as valid targets for fair criticism. It doesn't mean that racists/reactionaries get a free pass, but it does mean that nobody gets special treatment.

meri_dian 9y ago
No one is saying the Jews should get a free pass for anything they do. Just that Israel seems like a very small reparation to pay for centuries of oppression. Israel is a far, far less "apartheid" nation than other middle eastern nations. So why does Israel get all the hate? Because of latent anti-Semitic beliefs in society, which is the point of my post.
- nyolfen 9y ago
  >Just that Israel seems like a very small reparation to pay for centuries of oppression. easy to say when it's not your family that loses their land and lives in an open-air prison
  - eanzenberg 9y ago
    Easy to picture when you compare land mass sizes.
eanzenberg 9y ago
The point of Israel is no one wants the Jews. Europe doesn’t want them. Russia doesn’t want them. The middle east sure as shit doesn’t want them. The US tolerates them. Let that sink in.
- Mizza 9y ago
  "Let that sink in" isn't an argument, and it especially isn't an argument that justifies apartheid. Nobody in Europe is saying Israel shouldn't exist, just that it should be held to modern western moral standards and accountability with regards to human rights.
  - portofcall 9y ago
    By those modern standards, they’re already doing better than the US and UK for example. They didn’t invade Afghanistan and Iraq, they didn’t destabilize Libya, and they don’t have a secret program of drone killings all over the world. Lose the apartheid nonsense too, you’re insulting the Israelis, and the South Africans who suffered under the real deal.
    - Mizza 9y ago
      "I know you are, but what I am I" doesn't excuse Israel for its crimes. The US isn't excused either - that's the whole point I'm making: no special treatment. And yes, Israel does have a drone assassination program - that's where the US got the idea for theirs. The US Hunter and Pioneer UAV systems are direct derivatives of Israeli models, etc.
      - portofcall 9y ago
        ...just that it should be held to modern western moral standards and accountability with regards to human rights.. You remember posting that, right? Israel does have a drone assassination program - that's where the US got the idea for theirs. The US Hunter and Pioneer UAV systems are direct derivatives of Israeli models, etc. Citations for that?
        Mizza 9y ago
        The crimes of the US don't excuse the crimes of Israel. I don't know why that's so hard for some people to grasp. Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_combat_aerial_vehicle#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_combat_aerial_vehicle... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killing#Use_by_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killing#Use_by_Israel https://www.army-technology.com/features/featureuav-evolution-natural-selection-drone-revolution/ https://www.army-technology.com/features/featureuav-evolutio... https://www.npr.org/2018/01/31/582099085/journalist-details-israels-secret-history-of-targeted-assassinations https://www.npr.org/2018/01/31/582099085/journalist-details-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killings_by_Israel_Defense_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killings_by_Israel_De... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/books/review-rise-and-kill-first-israel-assassinations-ronen-bergman.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/books/review-rise-and-kil... “Since World War II, Israel has assassinated more people than any other country in the Western world.”
Protostome 9y ago
Please stop using the word apartheid, you're abusing the term. Israel's actions are sometimes immoral and unjust (and to be fair, so are some of the steps the Palestinians occasionally take, especially Hamas) but it certainly is incredibly far from being apartheid.
- Mizza 9y ago
  It's a widely used and accepted analogy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analo..., including by the former president of the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine:_Peace_Not_Apartheid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine:_Peace_Not_Apartheid
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by Mizza 9y ago

meri_dian 9y ago

No one is saying the Jews should get a free pass for anything they do. Just that Israel seems like a very small reparation to pay for centuries of oppression. Israel is a far, far less "apartheid" nation than other middle eastern nations. So why does Israel get all the hate? Because of latent anti-Semitic beliefs in society, which is the point of my post.

nyolfen 9y ago
>Just that Israel seems like a very small reparation to pay for centuries of oppression. easy to say when it's not your family that loses their land and lives in an open-air prison
- eanzenberg 9y ago
  Easy to picture when you compare land mass sizes.

eanzenberg 9y ago

The point of Israel is no one wants the Jews. Europe doesn’t want them. Russia doesn’t want them. The middle east sure as shit doesn’t want them. The US tolerates them. Let that sink in.

Mizza 9y ago
"Let that sink in" isn't an argument, and it especially isn't an argument that justifies apartheid. Nobody in Europe is saying Israel shouldn't exist, just that it should be held to modern western moral standards and accountability with regards to human rights.
- portofcall 9y ago
  By those modern standards, they’re already doing better than the US and UK for example. They didn’t invade Afghanistan and Iraq, they didn’t destabilize Libya, and they don’t have a secret program of drone killings all over the world. Lose the apartheid nonsense too, you’re insulting the Israelis, and the South Africans who suffered under the real deal.
  - Mizza 9y ago
    "I know you are, but what I am I" doesn't excuse Israel for its crimes. The US isn't excused either - that's the whole point I'm making: no special treatment. And yes, Israel does have a drone assassination program - that's where the US got the idea for theirs. The US Hunter and Pioneer UAV systems are direct derivatives of Israeli models, etc.
    - portofcall 9y ago
      ...just that it should be held to modern western moral standards and accountability with regards to human rights.. You remember posting that, right? Israel does have a drone assassination program - that's where the US got the idea for theirs. The US Hunter and Pioneer UAV systems are direct derivatives of Israeli models, etc. Citations for that?
      - Mizza 9y ago
        The crimes of the US don't excuse the crimes of Israel. I don't know why that's so hard for some people to grasp. Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_combat_aerial_vehicle#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_combat_aerial_vehicle... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killing#Use_by_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killing#Use_by_Israel https://www.army-technology.com/features/featureuav-evolution-natural-selection-drone-revolution/ https://www.army-technology.com/features/featureuav-evolutio... https://www.npr.org/2018/01/31/582099085/journalist-details-israels-secret-history-of-targeted-assassinations https://www.npr.org/2018/01/31/582099085/journalist-details-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killings_by_Israel_Defense_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killings_by_Israel_De... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/books/review-rise-and-kill-first-israel-assassinations-ronen-bergman.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/books/review-rise-and-kil... “Since World War II, Israel has assassinated more people than any other country in the Western world.”

Protostome 9y ago

Please stop using the word apartheid, you're abusing the term. Israel's actions are sometimes immoral and unjust (and to be fair, so are some of the steps the Palestinians occasionally take, especially Hamas) but it certainly is incredibly far from being apartheid.

Mizza 9y ago
It's a widely used and accepted analogy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analo..., including by the former president of the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine:_Peace_Not_Apartheid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine:_Peace_Not_Apartheid

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]