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Screening process: Resume screen, phone screen, web based Etherpad code test, then fly/bus in and day of interviews and whiteboard code test. As a programmer

Screening process: Resume screen, phone screen, web based Etherpad code test, then fly/bus in and day of interviews and whiteboard code test. As a programmer currently looking for work, I find this screening process to be draconian and insulting. I cannot vouch for it's efficacy as I've never used it when hiring people. However, the problem I have with it is the rigidity with which I've seen it enforced. I've a number of open-source projects that I've started and contribute to and a plethora of code examples I can send upon request. I like to think of it as a portfolio of code. I've sent links to these projects and made sure the recruiter knew that I could provide further code samples as required. Yet each time I walk into the interview, the interviewer hasn't read a single line of my code and hands me a dry erase marker. I then get the sense that I'm just another number and they could hardly care about who I am or what I do. I don't know what writing code on a whiteboard is supposed to show the interviewer. The person they're interviewing is not in the normal state of mind they are in when they're doing they're job. What good is a pressure test other than to keep very good, capable people out of your organization? Certainly a production artist wouldn't walk into an interview with a portfolio and be asked to draw a puppy. The gall of the interviewer would force the artist to walk out unless they're especially desperate. The same is true for programmers, IMO. If a candidate sends you code to read, take the time to read it before you interview them. Otherwise why should they even bother sacrificing their time on this Earth to your benefit if you won't even consider their work and effort?

umjames 16y ago
I hear you, but if I'm looking at your code that I didn't see you write in front of me, how do I know that code really came from you? You could have copied and pasted most of it from somewhere else and only made slight changes.
- agentultra 16y ago
  Well if it's an open source project, you could just google some of the code snippets and find out. Plagriarism isn't hard to detect unless the code is proprietary. Then I suppose you either have to be paranoid and suspect everyone or accept that most people you talk to are pretty much like yourself and not lying cheaters.
edw519 16y ago
As a programmer currently looking for work, I find this screening process to be draconian and insulting. As a hiring manager, I look for someone who gets things done. No surprise that this takes many things: knowledge, skill, smarts, creativity, experience, team work, and maybe most important: attitude. You have just self-identified your bad attitude. If you think this is "draconian and insulting", just wait until your knee deep in digital shit with customers barking at you all day long. I cannot vouch for it's efficacy as I've never used it when hiring people. I can. Nothing works better. Period. If I have 30 to 60 minutes to find out how well you'll perform, I'll have you code and teach me what you've done. I don't care what you've done before, your state of mind, or even if your code ever runs or compiles. If you're any good at all, I'll find out. If you're a poser, I'll find that out, too. And if you don't want to play along, then either you're a poser avoiding exposure or a prima donna who is saving me a lot of suffering down the road. I'm not trying to insult you, just give an honest answer to your (very good) question. This comes up so often, I've responded to it before. A little more light shed here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=89669 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=89669 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=834513 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=834513 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=835092 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=835092
- danilocampos 16y ago
  It's a fair point. Unless you've got a body of work that inspires a manager to recruit you with a stack of spicy magazines and a basket full of candies and fruit, there's a specific dance when interviewing. It's like an audition. At issue isn't whether you can do a task. Instead, whoever is hiring wonders can you do a task with me. So there's some jumping through hoops. The hope is that in the process of evaluating and sailing through the hoops, the interview group can establish how you solve problems, how you approach interaction with others, how you take direction, how constructively you can disagree, and maybe, as a smidgeon of the evaluation, how well you actually know your thing. In the end there's plenty you can teach about how to do the job to best suit the task and the company that's hiring. No one can teach you how to be a person, so the fit has to work. It's miserable working with jackasses who are technically competent but personally toxic.
- KevinMS 16y ago
brown9-2 16y ago
Certainly a production artist wouldn't walk into an interview with a portfolio and be asked to draw a puppy. No, but I could imagine someone being asked how they might go about starting a new assignment or piece of work (art might be a bad example to use here since the process is likely not as important as the end result). These coding exercises give the interviewer a chance to gauge how the candidate goes about solving problems, if he/she can think on his/her feet, their problem-solving strategies, etc. Code that you have already written is great but it doesn't tell the interviewers much about the process that led to it.
oiuygtfrtghyju 16y ago
Would you rather be judged on your ability to write some sample code in the interview. Or on the more traditional, quality of suit, firmness of handshake, where you went to school and ability to answer "what are your greatest weaknesses" type questions?
bmm6o 16y ago
Any test can fail in two fundamental ways: false positives and false negatives. The primary purpose of a screening test is to filter out unqualified candidates (that is, to not certify as qualified someone who is not). The process Joel describes is very effective at this. Your complaint, essentially, is that it will incorrectly label as unqualified some qualified candidates (or that they will elect not to submit to the process, essentially putting themselves in the no-hire pile). I think Joel would tell you that this kind of error is much less costly to an organization than the other kind. Suppose he relaxed the constraints enough to get you to pass (we'll posit that you're in the false negative group). This would necessarily imply accepting some lower-qualified candidates who would have been filtered out before. Is the company better off now? Do you think you are that much better than the people they were getting under the old system to risk also hiring lower quality candidates?
Uhhrrr 16y ago
The most recent graphic designer to apply at my workplace was asked to demo his Photoshop skills on the fly ("Can you make me look thinner?"). He did great and we hired him. Also, I've worked with programmers who definitely should have been asked to write "Hello World" at some point in the hiring process. If they'd felt insulted and walked out, so much the better.

umjames 16y ago

I hear you, but if I'm looking at your code that I didn't see you write in front of me, how do I know that code really came from you? You could have copied and pasted most of it from somewhere else and only made slight changes.

agentultra 16y ago
Well if it's an open source project, you could just google some of the code snippets and find out. Plagriarism isn't hard to detect unless the code is proprietary. Then I suppose you either have to be paranoid and suspect everyone or accept that most people you talk to are pretty much like yourself and not lying cheaters.

edw519 16y ago

As a programmer currently looking for work, I find this screening process to be draconian and insulting. As a hiring manager, I look for someone who gets things done. No surprise that this takes many things: knowledge, skill, smarts, creativity, experience, team work, and maybe most important: attitude. You have just self-identified your bad attitude. If you think this is "draconian and insulting", just wait until your knee deep in digital shit with customers barking at you all day long. I cannot vouch for it's efficacy as I've never used it when hiring people. I can. Nothing works better. Period. If I have 30 to 60 minutes to find out how well you'll perform, I'll have you code and teach me what you've done. I don't care what you've done before, your state of mind, or even if your code ever runs or compiles. If you're any good at all, I'll find out. If you're a poser, I'll find that out, too. And if you don't want to play along, then either you're a poser avoiding exposure or a prima donna who is saving me a lot of suffering down the road. I'm not trying to insult you, just give an honest answer to your (very good) question. This comes up so often, I've responded to it before. A little more light shed here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=89669 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=89669 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=834513 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=834513 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=835092 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=835092

danilocampos 16y ago
It's a fair point. Unless you've got a body of work that inspires a manager to recruit you with a stack of spicy magazines and a basket full of candies and fruit, there's a specific dance when interviewing. It's like an audition. At issue isn't whether you can do a task. Instead, whoever is hiring wonders can you do a task with me. So there's some jumping through hoops. The hope is that in the process of evaluating and sailing through the hoops, the interview group can establish how you solve problems, how you approach interaction with others, how you take direction, how constructively you can disagree, and maybe, as a smidgeon of the evaluation, how well you actually know your thing. In the end there's plenty you can teach about how to do the job to best suit the task and the company that's hiring. No one can teach you how to be a person, so the fit has to work. It's miserable working with jackasses who are technically competent but personally toxic.
KevinMS 16y ago

brown9-2 16y ago

Certainly a production artist wouldn't walk into an interview with a portfolio and be asked to draw a puppy. No, but I could imagine someone being asked how they might go about starting a new assignment or piece of work (art might be a bad example to use here since the process is likely not as important as the end result). These coding exercises give the interviewer a chance to gauge how the candidate goes about solving problems, if he/she can think on his/her feet, their problem-solving strategies, etc. Code that you have already written is great but it doesn't tell the interviewers much about the process that led to it.

oiuygtfrtghyju 16y ago

Would you rather be judged on your ability to write some sample code in the interview. Or on the more traditional, quality of suit, firmness of handshake, where you went to school and ability to answer "what are your greatest weaknesses" type questions?

bmm6o 16y ago

Any test can fail in two fundamental ways: false positives and false negatives. The primary purpose of a screening test is to filter out unqualified candidates (that is, to not certify as qualified someone who is not). The process Joel describes is very effective at this. Your complaint, essentially, is that it will incorrectly label as unqualified some qualified candidates (or that they will elect not to submit to the process, essentially putting themselves in the no-hire pile). I think Joel would tell you that this kind of error is much less costly to an organization than the other kind. Suppose he relaxed the constraints enough to get you to pass (we'll posit that you're in the false negative group). This would necessarily imply accepting some lower-qualified candidates who would have been filtered out before. Is the company better off now? Do you think you are that much better than the people they were getting under the old system to risk also hiring lower quality candidates?

Uhhrrr 16y ago

The most recent graphic designer to apply at my workplace was asked to demo his Photoshop skills on the fly ("Can you make me look thinner?"). He did great and we hired him. Also, I've worked with programmers who definitely should have been asked to write "Hello World" at some point in the hiring process. If they'd felt insulted and walked out, so much the better.