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The renewable power source for the electricity isn't close enough to where it is needed (hydro-electric), or not stable enough (wind, solar). And the fuel prod

The renewable power source for the electricity isn't close enough to where it is needed (hydro-electric), or not stable enough (wind, solar). And the fuel produced can be used for applications other than power generation. And used as a storage medium to even out the bumps in solar/wind. For that last category, this process needs to be more effective than battery storage.

ttul 9y ago
And if there is a price on carbon pollution that is high enough, that would help make the case.
- ebbv 9y ago
  It wouldn’t help because at best this is carbon neutral. But in reality it’s unlikely to be anywhere close to carbon neutral, in which case a tax on carbon makes this much more costly than battery storage.
  - usrusr 9y ago
    And if it was carbon-neutral, it would also be energy neutral, at best (realistically: much worse). But there is a time-shift opportunity in there, capture the CO2 when renewable output is lower than demand, recycle the CO2 into fuel when renewable energy is abundant. Retrofitting existing gas peaker plants into giant flow batteries would be the holy grail of grid scale energy storage.
    - ebbv 9y ago
      Except we know that existing fossil fuel burning plants are about 30% efficient. No battery is that bad. This is a really weak idea that only sounds good if you don’t think about the details at all. (And remember that 30% is only on the recovery side, you’d have to factor in any inefficiencies on the storage side before getting a final efficiency number to compare against other means such as batteries.)
      - usrusr 9y ago
        > Except we know that existing fossil fuel burning plants are about 30% efficient High efficiency gas plants are reaching 60%, and it gets better when you have consumers for waste heat who would otherwise be burning fossils just for heating. Maybe you are be confusing the numbers with well-to-wheels efficiency of electric cars?

ttul 9y ago

And if there is a price on carbon pollution that is high enough, that would help make the case.

ebbv 9y ago
It wouldn’t help because at best this is carbon neutral. But in reality it’s unlikely to be anywhere close to carbon neutral, in which case a tax on carbon makes this much more costly than battery storage.
- usrusr 9y ago
  And if it was carbon-neutral, it would also be energy neutral, at best (realistically: much worse). But there is a time-shift opportunity in there, capture the CO2 when renewable output is lower than demand, recycle the CO2 into fuel when renewable energy is abundant. Retrofitting existing gas peaker plants into giant flow batteries would be the holy grail of grid scale energy storage.
  - ebbv 9y ago
    Except we know that existing fossil fuel burning plants are about 30% efficient. No battery is that bad. This is a really weak idea that only sounds good if you don’t think about the details at all. (And remember that 30% is only on the recovery side, you’d have to factor in any inefficiencies on the storage side before getting a final efficiency number to compare against other means such as batteries.)
    - usrusr 9y ago
      > Except we know that existing fossil fuel burning plants are about 30% efficient High efficiency gas plants are reaching 60%, and it gets better when you have consumers for waste heat who would otherwise be burning fossils just for heating. Maybe you are be confusing the numbers with well-to-wheels efficiency of electric cars?