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Creator of “Ren and Stimpy” Accused of Preying on Underage Girls
- dang 9y agoAll: this is a substantive article. It's also a charged topic. If you comment here, please do so thoughtfully and help steer the thread away from ideological battle and other predictables.
- swinginthrowin 9y agoany clarifications on what substance there is? this reads like a two minute hate of a d-list celebrity and i struggle to understand what makes it interesting in the hacker sense.
- dang 9y agoYou mean in the Hacker News sense? From skimming the article, I'd say three things. (1) The signal/noise ratio seems high, i.e. there is a lot of factual information and relatively little ideological noise. (2) The story contains complexity, for example in the relationships between the people involved, that makes it less predictable than the median. Predictability is what we're most trying to avoid on HN. (3) It's a new variation in the ongoing shift in discourse about these behaviors, which is an interesting new phenomenon in the guidelines' sense (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). So yeah, there's a lot for people to rant and repeat about, but I think also some substance to consider, and maybe yield some insights about. We're asking users to make a conscious effort to eschew the former and go for the latter.
- dragonwriter 9y ago> The signal/noise ratio seems high, i.e. there is a lot of factual information and relatively little ideological noise. That seems true. > The story contains complexity, for example in the relationships between the people involved, that makes it less predictable than the median. There is complexity, but it's the pretty much the kind of complexity that has become a cookie-cutter template of harassment narratives in creative industries recently. > It's a new variation in the ongoing shift in discourse about these behaviors Is it, though? The dynamics seem to be nearly identical to many of the other narratives recently, differing only in the identity of the victims, perpetrator, and workplaces involved.
- dang 9y agoFair points. You may be right.
- gdulli 9y agoYou could not possibly have read it and earnestly have that opinion of the piece's substance. edit: To clarify, you may reasonably either like or dislike it, but to claim it's lacking substance is trivially demonstrably false.
- eganist 9y agoThis is actually the exact sort of long-form journalism I would expect from an outlet with proper pedigree, and it's the sort of hard-to-monetize journalism which BuzzFeed funds with its separate clickbait business model. This is Palanti(e)r journalism from them. Your comment suggests you didn't even click the link.
- zrobotics 9y agoWhile I may not like it, I am glad that buzzfeed has managed to find a way to support good journalism. I almost wonder if they wouldn't be better off segregating these pieces from the rest of their content, as it seems to me that there are likely two entirely different audiences for each type.
- baud147258 9y agoI've discovered the buzzfeed homepage in my language, in French, which mostly article like those in more mainstream publications. Still I've skimmed a few and they looked good.
- andrewmcwatters 9y agoI don't think you get to decide whether or not I perceive something as substantive.
- dang 9y agoSure, of course not. But it's my job to decide what counts as substantive for shared HN purposes, and I try to do that by principle and not by preference.
- aerodog 9y agoHe had a 16 year old girlfriend. Jerry Seinfeld had a 17 year old girlfriend. Why doesn't Jerry make headlines?
- minikites 9y agoHe should be.
- HarryHirsch 9y agoDon't let the difference in age distract you from the fact that the power differential is what is important.
- Gabriel_Martin 9y agoI can't tell if this is whataboutism
- zaksoup 9y agoprobably means it is...
- dcre 9y agoThe article, if you had read it, makes abundantly clear that the story here is not only the mere fact of her age and their "dating", but rather a number of specific manipulations and violations.
- coldtea 9y agoBecause public opinion has become more prudish/fundamentalist over the decades. Meanwhile, established religious groups marry young teenage girls, sometimes several of them at once.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- jacquesm 9y ago
- nothrabannosir 9y agoThe article links to a YouTube video with a (allegedly) damning remark from Kricfalusi. Uploaded in Jan 2016, and supposedly still available when the author wrote this article, it is suddenly “unavailable due to copyright claims.” Shame. Does anyone have a copy of this video? https://youtu.be/PheypE68BKc?t=2902 https://youtu.be/PheypE68BKc?t=2902
- CurtHagenlocher 9y agoI suspect that it was him talking to Howard Stern. From another article, "Howard Stern, while doing an interview, referenced Kricfalusi’s Sody Pop character, calling her 'a hot chick with big cans and nice legs.' Kricfalusi reportedly grinned, and added, 'She’s underage, too.'"
- sp332 9y agoI think the full episode is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6OoJP3VJoA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6OoJP3VJoA and I assume it will be taken down soon so I'll see if I can make a copy in that case.
- nothrabannosir 9y agoThanks. What I don’t like about this is that video is evidence. Whoever took it down is participating in the culture of cover ups, that we pat ourselves on the back so much for lamenting. Censorship is de rigeur. Why? Why accept this? “This video contains content from Sirius XM, who has blocked it on copyright grounds.” Copyright grounds my ass. He was grooming a 13-y.o. Shame, Sirius XM. Shame on you, and on the execs who made the call to censor that video.
- subpixel 9y agoThis video is very cringe-worthy. And not just because of what he is wearing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msA11gdH_uU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msA11gdH_uU
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- beedeebeedee 9y agoThis is one of those times when I don't like how the internet has increased our connectivity. I'm sure this is a substantive article, but I would prefer to let my childhood memories of "Ren and Stimpy" fade away without knowing about this (I didn't read the article). I trust that this is being handled by the appropriate authorities and the people who are involved. If it isn't being handled appropriately, then I think that would be the newsworthy article (not this one). Correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't read the article and only commented on it because these types of articles make me uncomfortable. I don't mean to be a snowflake but it's a bummer seeing this stuff in my favorite newsfeed.
- jacquesm 9y ago> I trust that this is being handled by the appropriate authorities It isn't. That's why the article exists in the first place.
- beedeebeedee 9y agoOk, read it. That sucks. I understand it's important to have a public shaming, not just to punish the perpetrator, but to make sure nobody else thinks it's a good idea to do what he did. It's just a big bummer all around. Hopefully this doesn't happen to any other kids, and hopefully the kids growing up now won't need to revisit their own cartoon memories like this.
- belorn 9y agoPublic shaming is now not only appropriate but important? Should we reintroduce tar and feathers in order to make sure nobody else thinks its a good idea? If we think that the statue of limitation is to short then say that and request a change. If we think that the criteria for finding someone guilty is too high, then change that. Extra judicial punishment is a terrible method to punish perpetrator and scaring others to not commit crime, and has a long history to prove it.
- mercer 9y ago
- coldtea 9y ago>And yet Kricfalusi, 62, continues to be widely celebrated as a pioneer in the male-dominated field of animation. Because personal/moral failures somehow make you not be a "pioneer" in your field? Or because faulty persons should not be celebrated as anything? Let's just have Mother Teresa as the sole artistic figure to celebrate then... oh, wait...
- smoyer 9y agoFor those that don't understand the "oh, wait..." part of the comment, here's an alternative view of Mother Theresa (note that neither of these views is necessarily mine) - http://www.tankriot.com/2010/090/ http://www.tankriot.com/2010/090/
- lomnakkus 9y agoI'm really curious about > Mother Teresa as the sole artistic[...] oh, wait. What do you mean? I just don't understand if you're saying whether we should only look to (supposedly) flawless people, or... what? If it's the former then I submit that there's a pretty long way from "not flawless" to "paedophile". The reason I ask, is that I think it's acknowledged pretty widely that Mother Teresa was actually a pretty flawed person who, through blind faith and belief, actually worsened the suffering of those in her care, and perhaps even caused the deaths of people who actually had treatable diseases, etc. etc. There's quite a lot of interesting things: [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa
- RickS 9y agoI think that's what the poster means. If you disqualify impactful people who are imperfect, you have disqualified all people.
- bittercynic 9y agoI think you're reading something into that quote that isn't there. They may have meant that he doesn't deserve to be celebrated, though he may be a pioneer.
- 9y ago
- iooi 9y agoI wonder if this would still have made the news had he done this outside of California, where the age of consent is 18 [1]. Most of the country (31 states) has an age of consent of 16, 8 have it at 17, and the remaining have it at 18. Not saying this is acceptable, since the age issue isn't as bad as how he abused his position of power, but just giving some extra context to the situation. In most of the country, the sentence below wouldn't apply: > Byrd feels the time has come for Kricfalusi to be held accountable, particularly, she said, after the police told her in December that Kricfalusi’s alleged crimes against her were too old to investigate. “He shouldn’t be able to get away with that,” she said. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_...
- gdulli 9y agoI'd say it's newsworthy because people deserve to know the context that his contact with the girl started when she was 13, not 16.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Arete31415 9y agoLook, statutory rape laws are not new. I remember being a 16 year old girl. If a 40 year old man had approached me in that way, I wouldn't have thought, "Oh it's the 90's! This is fine!" I would have been creeped out and appalled...which is why predators have to start out subtly and groom their victims over time. This behavior has not been "fine" or "legal" for quite some time, but it was tolerated by individuals in a community, especially if the perpetrator had influence. The culture of tolerance has changed, that's it. And it hasn't even changed that much. R. Kelly is known to groom and abuse underage girls, and he's not currently in prison where he belongs.
- existencebox 9y agoA bit off topic, and realize there's no way I'm going to come out of writing this unscathed, but I'm slightly frustrated in that I've used _exactly the same argument_ you just used here (specifically interesting new phenomenon), I believe in conversation with you as well (although it could have certainly been another poster, I certainly try to be internally consistent[0]) in previous flagged threads. Although those had a political bent, I felt they had even more connection to tech due to the companies and personalities involved, as well as their implications. Can you clarify to me why topics along this(OPs) degree of polarization seem to get significantly more "institutional" support than many of the topics in the political/economic space that directly abut technology? I'm somewhat at a loss how the same standard that you asked readers in the thread in [1], "the ones that only stir up outrage, however justifiably, and don't also gratify intellectual curiosity, are not a good fit" wouldn't apply to this as well. [0](To not say this without some sort of reference, I have a track record of trying to speak out against these apparent contradictions, and realize I'm certainly opening myself up to attack here as I did in this post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577724 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577724, within a thread where you basically said "I guess this wasn't interesting enough because people flagged it" and it garnered far less of a defense than this topic has. The original topic for which that thread was posted did not even get a response, and was merely flagged into oblivion despite massive upvoting pressure.) [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16578331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16578331 Edit: personal curiosity, is it normal that my post appears minimized as dead/flagged posts typically do, even in the case that it's ostensibly not?
- dang 9y agoI'm finding this comment a little hard to follow, but let me try. Obviously people are always going to disagree about particular calls, but on a principles level, from my perspective, we're pretty consistent. If you're asking about the Haspel story, I wouldn't say that was an interesting new phenomenon in HN's sense, nor was there nearly enough information to feed a substantive discussion about it. To be honest that case wasn't even really a close call. Some new users got upset at us for moderating it, but as I tried to point out at the time, that was mostly because of unfamiliarity with how HN works. An intense political profile ("if they'd cover it on TV news", as the site guidelines say) often feels like information, but usually isn't, in HN's sense. That doesn't mean the story isn't significant. When we say a story is off topic here and/or when we turn off flags on a story, we're not judging the story's overall significance. We're concerned with whether it fits the site guidelines and whether the community is able to discuss it substantively. I think the answer to most of your questions probably lies in what kind of site HN is trying to be, and what kinds of site it is trying not to be.
- CocaKoala 9y agoOne of the things on my abstract wishlist is a hope that we as a culture can move away from this trend of saying terrible, awful things under the guise of 'irony'. > In an interview with Howard Stern in the mid-’90s, the radio host asked him about a character in the comic book anthology the cartoonist was then promoting. Stern called Sody Pop “a hot chick with big cans and nice legs.” Kricfalusi responded with a smile: “She’s underage, too.” I think anybody would raise an eyebrow at that. It's a messed up statement. But because it's in the context of this conversation with a shock-jock, because it's _clearly_ ironic, it's _clearly a joke, why are you taking it so seriously, lighten up_, nobody called him on the fact that he was saying something incredibly messed up, and maybe if somebody had, then this would have come to light earlier. I understand that freedom of speech is great and people are free to make whatever jokes they want. But just because they CAN doesn't mean they SHOULD, and if people stopped making jokes about being a pedophile, about being a predator, about being a nazi or a misogynist, I think we'd be better off.
- gdulli 9y agoHoward Stern is also the venue where Trump talked about walking in on beauty pageant contestants while they were naked. And that was without irony.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 9y agoI don't want them pretending to be normal. Why do you want that?
- CocaKoala 9y agoIt's not that I want pedophiles to act normal and do a better job of hiding their abuses; rather, I'd just be happier if a) when somebody straight up says something that's gross like that, it gets called out and investigated and b) people don't make gross jokes like that to be edgy.
- s73v3r_ 9y agoI don't either. But I do want things like that to be more eyebrow raising, instead of everyone just assumes they're making a joke.
- notafxn 9y agoStill waiting for Dan Schneider to fall.
- jessaustin 9y agoWasn't he just fired?
- marpstar 9y agoYes. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/03/29/the-sudden-end-of-dan-schneiders-time-at-nickelodeon-where-he-built-an-empire/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/w...
- gigatexal 9y agoDamnit. Why can’t our cartoon heroes be good people?
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 9y agoFact is practically everyone who makes an impact large enough to be remembered is one kind of asshole or another. That's just how it is, people aren't perfect, and if even our heroes can't get it right maybe we shouldn't be so hard on eachother.
- amsilprotag 9y agoI remember watching a Stern interview, Billy West Vs John Kricfalusi 1995 [0]. Kricfalusi came across as petty and self-absorbed, essentially calling West a scab for acceding to management by voice acting multiple characters in later seasons. West claimed the show would be insolvent otherwise and he needed the money. Kricfalusi said this act led to defeat of the creative faction by the executive faction. I don't know how I stumbled upon it years ago, since it only has ~300 views even now. But i still remember how psychologically manipulative Kricfalusi sounded, and my surprised reaction at the end when Stern sided with him. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6OoJP3VJoA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6OoJP3VJoA
- barrkel 9y agoMost high-powered executives I've interacted with have been psychologically manipulative. Are you sure it wasn't just an attribute of people who've wielded some degree of power in a political environment?
- odammit 9y agoYou eediot!
- pnathan 9y ago> fostered a libertine atmosphere in which taking offense was itself offensive. I've seen this here and there. What this does - among the useful things - is it removes the ability to set healthy boundaries. So unhealth grows. Boundaries are needed in professional and personal life. > "...Why didn’t you just leave? Well, because this asshole told me when I was 13 that I was special, and I don’t have any self-esteem, so I believe it.” And the fact was that he had hired her, when she had no prospects, right after she was rejected from art school. This is a complex statement with nuance. What happened is an abuse of power. But the powerful person understood the talent and capability of the less powerful. The mentoring was good. The abuse was not. I wonder how many talented programmers today are in the shoes of the victim, being taken advantage of by experienced founders and executives.
- michaelchisari 9y agothe powerful person understood the talent and capability of the less powerful. The mentoring was good. Except Katie Rice can never really be sure whether Kricfalusi took interest in her because of her raw talent, or because she was a very young girl who looked up to him. In this specific aspect, I see parallels to the situation with Dan Harmon and Megan Ganz. Ganz was an adult, but there was a huge power dynamic at play in their professional relationship. While Harmon was interested in her romantically, he praised her work. Once she made it clear she wasn't interested, he became his (usual) caustic, over-critical self. And with that came a lot of doubt as to which was the truth. Would Kricfalusi have done the same if he weren't interested in her that way? The women here will never truly know, and that can add salt to the wounds.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- DoreenMichele 9y agoI've read the article and the piece that stands out to me is the inherent conflict of interest career-wise that women routinely face, regardless of age. These girls contacted him hoping to further their careers and were surprised he responded at all. He did further their ambitions for a time, though at a cost because of his sexual interest in them. But this is not an issue girls age out of because the problem is not specific to men whose sexual preference is underage girls. This issue can come up for any female seeking career advancement by connecting to a powerful man who happens to not be gay.
- Red_Tarsius 9y agoJohn Kricfalusi's blog is a treasure trove for anyone willing to learn the ropes of animation and cartooning. It's one of the most fascinating blogs I've ever come across, even though I didn't like the style of Ren & Stimpy. He sounds like a very passionate, skillful and opinionated teacher. > course http://johnkcurriculum.blogspot.com/ http://johnkcurriculum.blogspot.com/ > posts http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/ http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/
- fsck_muzzies 9y agoBuzzfeed is a legit source for news? Give me a fucking break.