6 ms·

PC gaming just shook a little. I have decades old games that still work because Microsoft still supports Windows. uTorrent entirely exists because of Microsoft'

PC gaming just shook a little. I have decades old games that still work because Microsoft still supports Windows. uTorrent entirely exists because of Microsoft's commitment to break-your-back-backwards-compatability in Windows. DirectX is 25+ years of of PC gaming's history. That could disappear like a console generation. That's a little disconcerting.

jdboyd 9y ago
I'm not clear on why uTorrent depends on extreme backwards compatibility. Isn't that a currently updated product?
- JamesLeonis 9y ago
  The reason uTorrent can stay small is because it exploits libraries that have existed in Windows since NT, mostly for GUI work. There was also development that incorporated the HTML Application library [1]. At least that was the case when I worked on it back in 2014. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application
  - geon 9y ago
    > it exploits libraries that have existed in Windows since NT I use uTorrent on my mac.
    - JamesLeonis 9y ago
      I am specifically referencing the original PC version. There's a whole other library in the code dedicated to the mac platform implementation, as well as Linux. The reason uTorrent on Windows started small was because it didn't include much of any static linkages, but this depended on dynamically linking some libraries in Windows that Microsoft never removed. This is the dedication to backwards-compatibility I refer to.
jpernst 9y ago
On the contrary, I think perhaps the best thing for the preservation of the history of windows gaming is for windows to stop changing. A frozen or deprecated win32 API will give WINE (which is already quite good) breathing room to catch up and fill in the gaps, without having to continuously cope with the shifting sand of the latest experiments with windows. We'll be able to run old windows games forever, rather than just as long as Microsoft deigns to allow it. DOS games are fairly well preserved at this point for similar reasons. Of course, then we'll have to deal with whatever the next platform is, but that's just the reality of the industry.
- JamesLeonis 9y ago
  I understand where you are coming from. You are correct that an constantly changing desktop experience is sub-optimal. I fear we will lose the Microsoft as the silent steward of backwards compatibility, DirectX support, getting manufacturers to make great hardware drivers, the list goes on. It's this part of Microsoft that Windows will lose, because it isn't customer facing. I think the fallout is exactly the opposite of what you want. A de-emphasized Windows means that the customer experience stuff is pushed forward while the above suffers. The only bulwark against that is how deeply invested most enterprise companies are in the Windows universe, driving many of those behind-the-scenes fixes and changes. > Of course, then we'll have to deal with whatever the next platform is, but that's just the reality of the industry. Gaming on the PC was, in many was, a repudiation of that idea. We could have one continuous open system that ran everything from old games to new games. That's part of the point the emulation crowd wants to make as well. We don't have to live with platform churn. But I'll be the first to admit Stallman was right. We collectively ceded this power to a private corporation, and we could lose much of what we had because we weren't good stewards. EDIT: Spelling and grammar because I lack coffee.
  - seba_dos1 9y ago
    Actually... It's more common than not for an old game to not work correctly (or at all) in recent versions of Windows without hacks and compatibility wrappers. Try to run a DirectX 6 game on Windows 10. Today, WINE is closer to be that "one continuous system" than Windows is.
AdmiralAsshat 9y ago
My hope is that it will put more effort into projects like ReactOS, which will get us a binary-compatible version of Windows that is free and open-source.
- JamesLeonis 9y ago
  Microsoft in the last few years had a see-the-light moment with Open Source. If the stars align and I'm good this year, Microsoft might release some core Windows and DirectX code to the community.
shmerl 9y ago
The future of PC gaming is Linux gaming. And you can run Windows games in Wine on Linux, including games from Windows 3.11 times.
- wilsonnb 9y ago
  Why do you think the future of PC gaming is Linux gaming?
  - shmerl 9y ago
    Because MS is pushing more and more consolized and controlled setup. They want Xbox like environment on PC (UWP). So if want true PC gaming where you can mod what you want and how you want, Linux is the best bet.
    - wilsonnb 9y ago
      The only evidence I see of Microsoft trying to make PC gaming more like console gaming is them selling games through the Microsoft Store (I think that's what it's called now) and including the Game Mode stuff in Windows 10. The vast majority of gamers using Windows buy their games through Steam, Origin, or other stores that Microsoft has nothing to do with. Unless we see a massive market shift then I don't see this having any affect on the future of PC gaming. As for the game mode stuff, it's easy to turn off if you don't want it so I don't see any issue with it. I also think that most gamers (myself included) would be okay with PC gaming becoming more consolized. Back in the 90's you had to mess with configuration files in both the OS and the game you were playing far more than you do today. In a sense, it's because PC games have become more consolized - they "just work" most of the time. People like that. I hope the future of all forms of computing "just work" better than they do now. I will concede that if you want absolute freedom of customization, Linux is the best OS for you even if you don't plan on gaming at all. However, saying that Linux is the future of gaming is about as accurate as all of the claims that "20XX will be the year of the Linux desktop".
      - shmerl 9y ago
krzat 9y ago
I had to install some wine libraries for Arcanum because current Windows doesn't support DirectDraw properly. I imagine it will only get worse, but open source will fix that.
tahw 9y ago
Unrelated to the discussion but uTorrent has an open, major bug right now so you might want to switch clients!!! https://bugs.chromium.org/p/project-zero/issues/detail?id=1524 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/project-zero/issues/detail?id=15...

jdboyd 9y ago

I'm not clear on why uTorrent depends on extreme backwards compatibility. Isn't that a currently updated product?

JamesLeonis 9y ago
The reason uTorrent can stay small is because it exploits libraries that have existed in Windows since NT, mostly for GUI work. There was also development that incorporated the HTML Application library [1]. At least that was the case when I worked on it back in 2014. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application
- geon 9y ago
  > it exploits libraries that have existed in Windows since NT I use uTorrent on my mac.
  - JamesLeonis 9y ago
    I am specifically referencing the original PC version. There's a whole other library in the code dedicated to the mac platform implementation, as well as Linux. The reason uTorrent on Windows started small was because it didn't include much of any static linkages, but this depended on dynamically linking some libraries in Windows that Microsoft never removed. This is the dedication to backwards-compatibility I refer to.

jpernst 9y ago

On the contrary, I think perhaps the best thing for the preservation of the history of windows gaming is for windows to stop changing. A frozen or deprecated win32 API will give WINE (which is already quite good) breathing room to catch up and fill in the gaps, without having to continuously cope with the shifting sand of the latest experiments with windows. We'll be able to run old windows games forever, rather than just as long as Microsoft deigns to allow it. DOS games are fairly well preserved at this point for similar reasons. Of course, then we'll have to deal with whatever the next platform is, but that's just the reality of the industry.

JamesLeonis 9y ago
I understand where you are coming from. You are correct that an constantly changing desktop experience is sub-optimal. I fear we will lose the Microsoft as the silent steward of backwards compatibility, DirectX support, getting manufacturers to make great hardware drivers, the list goes on. It's this part of Microsoft that Windows will lose, because it isn't customer facing. I think the fallout is exactly the opposite of what you want. A de-emphasized Windows means that the customer experience stuff is pushed forward while the above suffers. The only bulwark against that is how deeply invested most enterprise companies are in the Windows universe, driving many of those behind-the-scenes fixes and changes. > Of course, then we'll have to deal with whatever the next platform is, but that's just the reality of the industry. Gaming on the PC was, in many was, a repudiation of that idea. We could have one continuous open system that ran everything from old games to new games. That's part of the point the emulation crowd wants to make as well. We don't have to live with platform churn. But I'll be the first to admit Stallman was right. We collectively ceded this power to a private corporation, and we could lose much of what we had because we weren't good stewards. EDIT: Spelling and grammar because I lack coffee.
- seba_dos1 9y ago
  Actually... It's more common than not for an old game to not work correctly (or at all) in recent versions of Windows without hacks and compatibility wrappers. Try to run a DirectX 6 game on Windows 10. Today, WINE is closer to be that "one continuous system" than Windows is.

AdmiralAsshat 9y ago

My hope is that it will put more effort into projects like ReactOS, which will get us a binary-compatible version of Windows that is free and open-source.

JamesLeonis 9y ago
Microsoft in the last few years had a see-the-light moment with Open Source. If the stars align and I'm good this year, Microsoft might release some core Windows and DirectX code to the community.

shmerl 9y ago

The future of PC gaming is Linux gaming. And you can run Windows games in Wine on Linux, including games from Windows 3.11 times.

wilsonnb 9y ago
Why do you think the future of PC gaming is Linux gaming?
- shmerl 9y ago
  Because MS is pushing more and more consolized and controlled setup. They want Xbox like environment on PC (UWP). So if want true PC gaming where you can mod what you want and how you want, Linux is the best bet.
  - wilsonnb 9y ago
    The only evidence I see of Microsoft trying to make PC gaming more like console gaming is them selling games through the Microsoft Store (I think that's what it's called now) and including the Game Mode stuff in Windows 10. The vast majority of gamers using Windows buy their games through Steam, Origin, or other stores that Microsoft has nothing to do with. Unless we see a massive market shift then I don't see this having any affect on the future of PC gaming. As for the game mode stuff, it's easy to turn off if you don't want it so I don't see any issue with it. I also think that most gamers (myself included) would be okay with PC gaming becoming more consolized. Back in the 90's you had to mess with configuration files in both the OS and the game you were playing far more than you do today. In a sense, it's because PC games have become more consolized - they "just work" most of the time. People like that. I hope the future of all forms of computing "just work" better than they do now. I will concede that if you want absolute freedom of customization, Linux is the best OS for you even if you don't plan on gaming at all. However, saying that Linux is the future of gaming is about as accurate as all of the claims that "20XX will be the year of the Linux desktop".
    - shmerl 9y ago

krzat 9y ago

I had to install some wine libraries for Arcanum because current Windows doesn't support DirectDraw properly. I imagine it will only get worse, but open source will fix that.

tahw 9y ago

Unrelated to the discussion but uTorrent has an open, major bug right now so you might want to switch clients!!! https://bugs.chromium.org/p/project-zero/issues/detail?id=1524 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/project-zero/issues/detail?id=15...