5 ms·

I think the law she is guilty of far pre-dates the corruption of the system. I do agree that parts of are prison system have very corrupt parts, but this is a

I think the law she is guilty of far pre-dates the corruption of the system. I do agree that parts of are prison system have very corrupt parts, but this is a much older law. 5 years seems too long though.

bambax 9y ago
> 5 years seems too long though Are you being sarcastic? 5 years for voting while on probation is "too long"?? How about: 1. Not preventing people who are in prison from voting 2. Not even having a "probation" time after people have been released from prison; they did their time, they are free again
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  > Not even having a "probation" time after people have been released from prison; they did their time, they are free again I think you're mistaken about what probation is. Probation is part of your time. You're sentenced for a given period of time, and at some point you may be released to serve the rest of that time in the community, on probation. Their sentence isn't over, and they aren't 'free' while they are on probation. It's part of the original sentence still. Probation allows people to serve part of their sentences back in the community when they are safe to do so. If you're arguing against having probation you're arguing for longer time spent in prison.
  - cornholio 9y ago
    > Probation is part of your time. Yes, but it's a part that is substantially different from imprisonment: you are given a chance to prove yourself (Latin probo, probatio, French prover) to society. It should be as close to the life of a virtuos citizen as possible - and exerting a right to vote, far from being a personal gain, is exactly the type of pro-social behavior we should encourage. I can understand why she should be reprimanded for violating her probation, but it's revolting that voting during probation could be considered a violation. Something is seriously wrong in a society that does that.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    If you're arguing against having probation you're arguing for longer time spent in prison. Not necessarily. edit: It's entirely possible to oppose halfway programs and also advocate for shorter sentencing...
  - Retric 9y ago
    Many people feel that probation is inherently unethical. X years of probation seems less harsh than X years in prison but often amount to the same thing. Without the option of probation prison time is not going to increase 1:1 and depending on the ratio total time in prison may actually decrease.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Who are these people? How many of them are ex-convicts?
      - mushbino 9y ago
        When you're on reporting probation you essentially lose all of your rights. The rules are incredibly strict and your probation officer can come find you any time of day. If they call you and you don't answer the phone that can be considered a violation of your probation. Straight to jail. They can come in your house and search 24/7. They can send you to jail indefinitely for any reason or no reason at all. Body cavity search any time they want. Speeding ticket? Straight to jail. Late to work? Straight to jail. Outside of your house after 10pm? Straight to jail. Didn't go to enough AA meetings this week? Straight to jail. Not able to pay court fines? Jail. Left city limits without permission? Guess what. Attempt to vote? Five fucking years!
  - mushbino 9y ago
    I think you're mistaken about how probation is used in practice. Many small offenses will get you put on probation for ten years. Parole and work release are more often used as alternatives to incarceration. The main issue here is whether or not people on probation should be allowed to vote. I don't see why they shouldn't and I can't see any justification for putting them in jail if they do. It's absolutely absurd.
    - tialaramex 9y ago
      The US frames prison as primarily revenge, it's about taking things away from "bad" people. Take away their nice things, destroy their family, make sure they'll never get a decent job and so on. The EU (and most modern actual thinking on the issue) says prison primarily lets us force convicts to reform, we can impose structure in their lives, show them how to be good - and in the worst case we keep them there if they refuse to reform. The British government fought and lost a legal battle to retain the status where prisoners can't legally vote (and many people who are in jail but aren't convicted of any crime don't end up being able to vote even though it's legal). The EU said that's not OK. You can target criminals who e.g. are in prison for vote tampering, but you can't take away people's vote just because they're in prison since they're still citizens.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- drefanzor 9y ago
  I think you meant parole. Probation is a "probationary" period that prevents you from going to prison, by substituting it with a period of time where you do classes, have a job, go to school, and/or community service also. Parole is a period of time after you are released from prison where you are still technically a "prisoner" but you are being let loose to see if you do well in society for a little while, but with extremely high restrictions that can put you back if you sneeze wrong. The federal prison system no longer supports federal parolees. In my state, Arizona, if you wait 2 years after you are "off paper" (completed parole/probation) you can have your rights restored so you can vote (this is for state felonies, not for federal felonies as far as I know). You can also have your record "sealed" where it still shows you are a felon, but as long as you didn't do anything dangerous(violent) or sexual in nature you can have the court hide what you did. This works out for people that performed financial crimes and are having a hard time getting a job as a cashier or anything to do with money. Or a person who stole a car and is trying to get hired as a driver.
hungerstrike 9y ago
Is corruption really a new phenomenon? Or, are we romanticizing history? I’m not an expert and I wasn’t there so I don’t know what the actual answer is. With just a cursory knowledge of history though, I don’t think the corruption of this or any system of control is very new at all.

bambax 9y ago

> 5 years seems too long though Are you being sarcastic? 5 years for voting while on probation is "too long"?? How about: 1. Not preventing people who are in prison from voting 2. Not even having a "probation" time after people have been released from prison; they did their time, they are free again

chrisseaton 9y ago
> Not even having a "probation" time after people have been released from prison; they did their time, they are free again I think you're mistaken about what probation is. Probation is part of your time. You're sentenced for a given period of time, and at some point you may be released to serve the rest of that time in the community, on probation. Their sentence isn't over, and they aren't 'free' while they are on probation. It's part of the original sentence still. Probation allows people to serve part of their sentences back in the community when they are safe to do so. If you're arguing against having probation you're arguing for longer time spent in prison.
- cornholio 9y ago
  > Probation is part of your time. Yes, but it's a part that is substantially different from imprisonment: you are given a chance to prove yourself (Latin probo, probatio, French prover) to society. It should be as close to the life of a virtuos citizen as possible - and exerting a right to vote, far from being a personal gain, is exactly the type of pro-social behavior we should encourage. I can understand why she should be reprimanded for violating her probation, but it's revolting that voting during probation could be considered a violation. Something is seriously wrong in a society that does that.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  If you're arguing against having probation you're arguing for longer time spent in prison. Not necessarily. edit: It's entirely possible to oppose halfway programs and also advocate for shorter sentencing...
- Retric 9y ago
  Many people feel that probation is inherently unethical. X years of probation seems less harsh than X years in prison but often amount to the same thing. Without the option of probation prison time is not going to increase 1:1 and depending on the ratio total time in prison may actually decrease.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Who are these people? How many of them are ex-convicts?
    - mushbino 9y ago
      When you're on reporting probation you essentially lose all of your rights. The rules are incredibly strict and your probation officer can come find you any time of day. If they call you and you don't answer the phone that can be considered a violation of your probation. Straight to jail. They can come in your house and search 24/7. They can send you to jail indefinitely for any reason or no reason at all. Body cavity search any time they want. Speeding ticket? Straight to jail. Late to work? Straight to jail. Outside of your house after 10pm? Straight to jail. Didn't go to enough AA meetings this week? Straight to jail. Not able to pay court fines? Jail. Left city limits without permission? Guess what. Attempt to vote? Five fucking years!
- mushbino 9y ago
  I think you're mistaken about how probation is used in practice. Many small offenses will get you put on probation for ten years. Parole and work release are more often used as alternatives to incarceration. The main issue here is whether or not people on probation should be allowed to vote. I don't see why they shouldn't and I can't see any justification for putting them in jail if they do. It's absolutely absurd.
  - tialaramex 9y ago
    The US frames prison as primarily revenge, it's about taking things away from "bad" people. Take away their nice things, destroy their family, make sure they'll never get a decent job and so on. The EU (and most modern actual thinking on the issue) says prison primarily lets us force convicts to reform, we can impose structure in their lives, show them how to be good - and in the worst case we keep them there if they refuse to reform. The British government fought and lost a legal battle to retain the status where prisoners can't legally vote (and many people who are in jail but aren't convicted of any crime don't end up being able to vote even though it's legal). The EU said that's not OK. You can target criminals who e.g. are in prison for vote tampering, but you can't take away people's vote just because they're in prison since they're still citizens.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
drefanzor 9y ago
I think you meant parole. Probation is a "probationary" period that prevents you from going to prison, by substituting it with a period of time where you do classes, have a job, go to school, and/or community service also. Parole is a period of time after you are released from prison where you are still technically a "prisoner" but you are being let loose to see if you do well in society for a little while, but with extremely high restrictions that can put you back if you sneeze wrong. The federal prison system no longer supports federal parolees. In my state, Arizona, if you wait 2 years after you are "off paper" (completed parole/probation) you can have your rights restored so you can vote (this is for state felonies, not for federal felonies as far as I know). You can also have your record "sealed" where it still shows you are a felon, but as long as you didn't do anything dangerous(violent) or sexual in nature you can have the court hide what you did. This works out for people that performed financial crimes and are having a hard time getting a job as a cashier or anything to do with money. Or a person who stole a car and is trying to get hired as a driver.

hungerstrike 9y ago

Is corruption really a new phenomenon? Or, are we romanticizing history? I’m not an expert and I wasn’t there so I don’t know what the actual answer is. With just a cursory knowledge of history though, I don’t think the corruption of this or any system of control is very new at all.