5 ms·

I find five years a bit surprising, but what do you think the proper penalty would be for a felon committing voter fraud should be? Edit: I'm utterly amazed th

by zeveb 9y ago

I find five years a bit surprising, but what do you think the proper penalty would be for a felon committing voter fraud should be? Edit: I'm utterly amazed that this comment has been downvoted to silence. Disenfranchising felons — i.e., those who have committed extremely serious crimes — is while somewhat controversial a long-standing practice. The woman in question committed voter fraud by voting without being legally permitted to. This raises some questions. Are felons seriously not told they may not vote? Why not? Is five years a reasonable sentence (I don't really think so in this case, but for someone who commits large-scale voter fraud it might be)? Certainly the woman seems hard-done-by. At the end of the day, though, she did commit a crime under the laws of the state, and while the sentence seems harsh some sentence is necessary.

sampo 9y ago
If you come from a country (like most European countries) where people are allowed to vote both on probation, and also in prison, then the whole act of voting wouldn't even be a fraud in your home country. But different countries have different practices on what is a crime.
- creaghpatr 9y ago
  You would also be required to present photo ID in order to vote.
jartelt 9y ago
I would prefer 0 days in prison because I don't think voting while a felon should be a crime. But, if we still want to call this situation voter fraud, how about we sentence them to community service? This person is not a danger to society, so I see no reason to put them in prison. More prion just messes up their life further and costs everybody a lot of precious tax dollars.
- daveFNbuck 9y ago
  While I agree that what this woman did shouldn't be voter fraud, community service isn't sufficient deterrent for actual voter fraud. People put in lots of volunteer hours to help get their preferred candidate elected, so they'd probably be willing to risk community service too. Voter fraud is very dangerous to society, as society depends on our trust in institutions.
  - TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
    It's not nearly as dangerous as privatised corporate justice, or jailing people for five years for essentially trivial offences.
    - daveFNbuck 9y ago
      Those are also things that we as a society should try to prevent.
      - s2g 9y ago
        Then maybe quit advocating for ridiculous punishment for a petty crime.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      An isolated case of voter fraud isn't dangerous. The danger is what would happen if fraud became widespread.
      - maxerickson 9y ago
        What's widespread mean? I bet more people drive drunk than are tempted to vote illegally. The penalty for first time intoxicated driving is often just a fine. The max jail time in Texas for first time DWI is 180 days (or as little as 3 days).
  - pulisse 9y ago
    In-person voter fraud is vanishingly rare (0.0003 percent to 0.0025 percent, according to a recent meta-analysis[1]). A severe penalty in this sort of case serves no meaningful deterrent function. [1] https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud...
maxerickson 9y ago
You are begging the question. She voted in a way that was contrary to the law, but it was (likely) a mistake rather than fraud. In any case, the penalty should be something like losing the right to vote in a single future election, especially lacking any evidence of an organized scheme to corrupt an election.
ahoy 9y ago
I think it's undemocratic to take away felons' right to vote.
mushbino 9y ago
How is this voter fraud? The issue is with them not being allowed to vote in the first place.
- zeveb 9y ago
  > How is this voter fraud? Because she wasn't legally allowed to vote, and she did. That's voter fraud. I'm fine with forbidding felons to vote, and of course any law forbidding something has to have penalties. I'm very surprised that the penalty in this case was so high and that it appears to have been a strict-liability crime. Honestly, six months or even less for a first offense would seem reasonable to me — but I'm not a judge.
tyingq 9y ago
I'm not convinced with the basic premise that a felon shouldn't be able to vote, so why any penalty at all? It's also believable she didn't know this law existed.
s2g 9y ago
> I'm utterly amazed that this comment has been downvoted to silence Because it comes off as incredibly cruel. > while the sentence seems harsh some sentence is necessary Why? Her crime was trying to vote. They caught it and said no. She believed she was legally able to vote. There is no malice.
maxerickson 9y ago
Looking at the statute, it's not illegal unless you know you aren't eligible to vote (Sec. 64.012. ILLEGAL VOTING): http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/EL/htm/EL.64.htm http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/EL/htm/EL.64.htm Maybe some other law applies?
- coding123 9y ago
  Amongst all the crazy comments in this thread, this may have been the only one we should all be discussing.

by zeveb 9y ago

sampo 9y ago

If you come from a country (like most European countries) where people are allowed to vote both on probation, and also in prison, then the whole act of voting wouldn't even be a fraud in your home country. But different countries have different practices on what is a crime.

creaghpatr 9y ago
You would also be required to present photo ID in order to vote.

jartelt 9y ago

I would prefer 0 days in prison because I don't think voting while a felon should be a crime. But, if we still want to call this situation voter fraud, how about we sentence them to community service? This person is not a danger to society, so I see no reason to put them in prison. More prion just messes up their life further and costs everybody a lot of precious tax dollars.

daveFNbuck 9y ago
While I agree that what this woman did shouldn't be voter fraud, community service isn't sufficient deterrent for actual voter fraud. People put in lots of volunteer hours to help get their preferred candidate elected, so they'd probably be willing to risk community service too. Voter fraud is very dangerous to society, as society depends on our trust in institutions.
- TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
  It's not nearly as dangerous as privatised corporate justice, or jailing people for five years for essentially trivial offences.
  - daveFNbuck 9y ago
    Those are also things that we as a society should try to prevent.
    - s2g 9y ago
      Then maybe quit advocating for ridiculous punishment for a petty crime.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    An isolated case of voter fraud isn't dangerous. The danger is what would happen if fraud became widespread.
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      What's widespread mean? I bet more people drive drunk than are tempted to vote illegally. The penalty for first time intoxicated driving is often just a fine. The max jail time in Texas for first time DWI is 180 days (or as little as 3 days).
- pulisse 9y ago
  In-person voter fraud is vanishingly rare (0.0003 percent to 0.0025 percent, according to a recent meta-analysis[1]). A severe penalty in this sort of case serves no meaningful deterrent function. [1] https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud...

maxerickson 9y ago

You are begging the question. She voted in a way that was contrary to the law, but it was (likely) a mistake rather than fraud. In any case, the penalty should be something like losing the right to vote in a single future election, especially lacking any evidence of an organized scheme to corrupt an election.

ahoy 9y ago

I think it's undemocratic to take away felons' right to vote.

mushbino 9y ago

How is this voter fraud? The issue is with them not being allowed to vote in the first place.

zeveb 9y ago
> How is this voter fraud? Because she wasn't legally allowed to vote, and she did. That's voter fraud. I'm fine with forbidding felons to vote, and of course any law forbidding something has to have penalties. I'm very surprised that the penalty in this case was so high and that it appears to have been a strict-liability crime. Honestly, six months or even less for a first offense would seem reasonable to me — but I'm not a judge.

tyingq 9y ago

I'm not convinced with the basic premise that a felon shouldn't be able to vote, so why any penalty at all? It's also believable she didn't know this law existed.

s2g 9y ago

> I'm utterly amazed that this comment has been downvoted to silence Because it comes off as incredibly cruel. > while the sentence seems harsh some sentence is necessary Why? Her crime was trying to vote. They caught it and said no. She believed she was legally able to vote. There is no malice.

maxerickson 9y ago

Looking at the statute, it's not illegal unless you know you aren't eligible to vote (Sec. 64.012. ILLEGAL VOTING): http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/EL/htm/EL.64.htm http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/EL/htm/EL.64.htm Maybe some other law applies?

coding123 9y ago
Amongst all the crazy comments in this thread, this may have been the only one we should all be discussing.