6 ms·

> I have to suspect a significant group of people can tell the difference. It's just not me. Various research seems to have been done on wine tasting, but I do

> I have to suspect a significant group of people can tell the difference. It's just not me. Various research seems to have been done on wine tasting, but I don't think I've ever heard of a study that wound up supporting this. They always seem to find that experienced, respected tasters can't tell a red from a white, or rate the same wine differently depending on where they're told its from, and so forth. Is there any persuasive evidence around that wine tasting isn't more or less bunk?

icelancer 9y ago
>> experienced, respected tasters can't tell a red from a white This is ridiculous. There is no way this is true. I'm an idiot and I can tell the difference blindly between a red and a white.
- OscarCunningham 9y ago
  IIRC the experiment tricked them by colouring the whites red and vice versa. So even if you could tell the difference you might not be so confident that you would know a trick was being played on you.
  - mercer 9y ago
    If that's what the experiment was, then it seems less evidence of people being able to taste the difference, and more evidence of how our visual perception might be able to mess with our sense of taste.
    - Turing_Machine 9y ago
      This is in fact a well-known effect. Give people green lollipops and a substantial percentage will describe the flavor as "lime", even if it's actually cherry. Give people red lollipops and a substantial percentage will describe the flavor as "cherry", even if it's actually lime. But that doesn't mean that lime and cherry actually taste the same.
  - psergeant 9y ago
    The other way this is done is by using a black glass: https://www.wineware.co.uk/iso-type-black-wine-tasting-glasses-215cl-set-of-6-blind-wine-tastings https://www.wineware.co.uk/iso-type-black-wine-tasting-glass...
- jerrre 9y ago
  when they're the same temperature?
  - MiddleEndian 9y ago
    It really depends on the wine as said earlier. I know pretty much nothing about wine and I could tell you the difference between a couple white wines because some are noticeably sweet (moscato, riesling) compared to others (sauvignon blanc, pinot grigio). I could id the first category vs the second, while somebody into wine presumably would have more depth.
- spacehome 9y ago
  I've done (literally) blind taste testing. I could do it, because I knew what was being testing, but it was trickier than I anticipated. One member of my group got a couple guesses wrong. It's not such a ridiculous thing that even an expert (whose expectations have been betrayed by red food coloring in a white wine) might stumble.
Semaphor 9y ago
White and red? Are there some white wines that taste a lot like reds? Because those wines I know (4-30€ range) the whites taste nothing like reds. It's like saying in a blind test people can't tell the differences between cola and sprite.
- fenomas 9y ago
  I was hand-waving there. From the study I had in mind: > A white wine artificially colored red with an odorless dye was olfactory described as a red wine by a panel of 54 tasters. Hence, because of the visual information, the tasters discounted the olfactory information.. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0093934X01924939 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0093934X0... To be clear I didn't mean to expressly claim that "experts cannot tell a red from a white", for any particular interpretation of those words. I mean generally that every time I've ever heard of a study examining whether wine-tasters consistently discern what they think they're discerning, the result is always that they don't.
  - acqq 9y ago
    So your claim “experienced respected testers” was false. That deserves that the upper post of yours should turn gray, imho. Moreover, I don’t understand why you can’t accept that not everybody has the same sense of smell just like not everybody sees the same: notice people wear glases? Or people color blind? Can’t you accept to be “smell blind” if you are untrained or physically less capable? The staring point must be that not every person is identical to you in any way.
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    That matches the gummy experiment. Buy a bag of cheap gummy candies, with multiple colors of candy. Separate the colors. Taste each color in turn, and write a description of the flavor that matches that color. Now put on a blindfold, and have a confederate hand you randomly selected candies. For each sample, describe the flavor. For certain brands (or lack thereof), it is readily apparent that all colors are actually the same flavor, and any distinctions that may occur in the initial descriptions are all illusionary. Some brands actually do have distinct flavors. At some point, someone figured out "hey, we could save money by not using 5 different flavoring blends, and most people wouldn't even notice." And it's not the smelling or tasting part that changes. It happens when you try to describe it. That's why "blue raspberry" is so wrong on your shaved ice. Raspberry is not a "blue" flavor. It's "red". But on the shelf, the red spectrum is already cluttered with cherry, strawberry, and watermelon. Apple has to be green, and raspberry has to be blue, so the ice jerk doesn't have to read labels. And you then have to close your eyes to make it taste more correct--or at least as correct as the artificial flavorings can get.
mikekchar 9y ago
It is very difficult to tell the difference between some reds and some whites. It's a bit like telling the difference between red cheddar and white cheddar. However, anybody could tell the difference between a young cabernet sauvignon and a reisling -- anybody. Go ahead and try it if you don't believe me. Is there anyone who can distinguish between any two wines? No. Are there wines that anyone can distinguish between? Yes. Are there some people who can distinguish between a greater set of wines than other people? Yes. Probably most people who are inexperienced with wine would be surprised at how many wines they could identify with a little bit of practice. Probably most people who are experienced with wine would be surprised at how many wines they fail to identify despite their considerable practice. But failing to identify a wine when you are sure you got it right is at least half of the fun.
- fenomas 9y ago
  > Are there some people who can distinguish between a greater set of wines than other people? Yes. Do you know of research to that effect?
  - likpok 9y ago
    https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/05/daily-chart-11 https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/05/daily-... It's a competition rather than research, but is consistent with both some people being better than others and some wines being more distinctive than others.
    - fenomas 9y ago
      The summary sounds interesting, but it's paywalled for me. The dissenting view, from what I guess is one of the most famous studies: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-wine-economics/article/an-examination-of-judge-reliability-at-a-major-us-wine-competition/15EF999FBAC63C5FB6DCF1C2F4BB6655 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-wine-econ...
      - 9y ago
p49k 9y ago
The study you’re referencing on not being able to distinguish white and red wine was performed on undergraduate college students, not wine tasting experts.

icelancer 9y ago

>> experienced, respected tasters can't tell a red from a white This is ridiculous. There is no way this is true. I'm an idiot and I can tell the difference blindly between a red and a white.

OscarCunningham 9y ago
IIRC the experiment tricked them by colouring the whites red and vice versa. So even if you could tell the difference you might not be so confident that you would know a trick was being played on you.
- mercer 9y ago
  If that's what the experiment was, then it seems less evidence of people being able to taste the difference, and more evidence of how our visual perception might be able to mess with our sense of taste.
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    This is in fact a well-known effect. Give people green lollipops and a substantial percentage will describe the flavor as "lime", even if it's actually cherry. Give people red lollipops and a substantial percentage will describe the flavor as "cherry", even if it's actually lime. But that doesn't mean that lime and cherry actually taste the same.
- psergeant 9y ago
  The other way this is done is by using a black glass: https://www.wineware.co.uk/iso-type-black-wine-tasting-glasses-215cl-set-of-6-blind-wine-tastings https://www.wineware.co.uk/iso-type-black-wine-tasting-glass...
jerrre 9y ago
when they're the same temperature?
- MiddleEndian 9y ago
  It really depends on the wine as said earlier. I know pretty much nothing about wine and I could tell you the difference between a couple white wines because some are noticeably sweet (moscato, riesling) compared to others (sauvignon blanc, pinot grigio). I could id the first category vs the second, while somebody into wine presumably would have more depth.
spacehome 9y ago
I've done (literally) blind taste testing. I could do it, because I knew what was being testing, but it was trickier than I anticipated. One member of my group got a couple guesses wrong. It's not such a ridiculous thing that even an expert (whose expectations have been betrayed by red food coloring in a white wine) might stumble.

Semaphor 9y ago

White and red? Are there some white wines that taste a lot like reds? Because those wines I know (4-30€ range) the whites taste nothing like reds. It's like saying in a blind test people can't tell the differences between cola and sprite.

fenomas 9y ago
I was hand-waving there. From the study I had in mind: > A white wine artificially colored red with an odorless dye was olfactory described as a red wine by a panel of 54 tasters. Hence, because of the visual information, the tasters discounted the olfactory information.. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0093934X01924939 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0093934X0... To be clear I didn't mean to expressly claim that "experts cannot tell a red from a white", for any particular interpretation of those words. I mean generally that every time I've ever heard of a study examining whether wine-tasters consistently discern what they think they're discerning, the result is always that they don't.
- acqq 9y ago
  So your claim “experienced respected testers” was false. That deserves that the upper post of yours should turn gray, imho. Moreover, I don’t understand why you can’t accept that not everybody has the same sense of smell just like not everybody sees the same: notice people wear glases? Or people color blind? Can’t you accept to be “smell blind” if you are untrained or physically less capable? The staring point must be that not every person is identical to you in any way.
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  That matches the gummy experiment. Buy a bag of cheap gummy candies, with multiple colors of candy. Separate the colors. Taste each color in turn, and write a description of the flavor that matches that color. Now put on a blindfold, and have a confederate hand you randomly selected candies. For each sample, describe the flavor. For certain brands (or lack thereof), it is readily apparent that all colors are actually the same flavor, and any distinctions that may occur in the initial descriptions are all illusionary. Some brands actually do have distinct flavors. At some point, someone figured out "hey, we could save money by not using 5 different flavoring blends, and most people wouldn't even notice." And it's not the smelling or tasting part that changes. It happens when you try to describe it. That's why "blue raspberry" is so wrong on your shaved ice. Raspberry is not a "blue" flavor. It's "red". But on the shelf, the red spectrum is already cluttered with cherry, strawberry, and watermelon. Apple has to be green, and raspberry has to be blue, so the ice jerk doesn't have to read labels. And you then have to close your eyes to make it taste more correct--or at least as correct as the artificial flavorings can get.

mikekchar 9y ago

It is very difficult to tell the difference between some reds and some whites. It's a bit like telling the difference between red cheddar and white cheddar. However, anybody could tell the difference between a young cabernet sauvignon and a reisling -- anybody. Go ahead and try it if you don't believe me. Is there anyone who can distinguish between any two wines? No. Are there wines that anyone can distinguish between? Yes. Are there some people who can distinguish between a greater set of wines than other people? Yes. Probably most people who are inexperienced with wine would be surprised at how many wines they could identify with a little bit of practice. Probably most people who are experienced with wine would be surprised at how many wines they fail to identify despite their considerable practice. But failing to identify a wine when you are sure you got it right is at least half of the fun.

fenomas 9y ago
> Are there some people who can distinguish between a greater set of wines than other people? Yes. Do you know of research to that effect?
- likpok 9y ago
  https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/05/daily-chart-11 https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/05/daily-... It's a competition rather than research, but is consistent with both some people being better than others and some wines being more distinctive than others.
  - fenomas 9y ago
    The summary sounds interesting, but it's paywalled for me. The dissenting view, from what I guess is one of the most famous studies: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-wine-economics/article/an-examination-of-judge-reliability-at-a-major-us-wine-competition/15EF999FBAC63C5FB6DCF1C2F4BB6655 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-wine-econ...
    - 9y ago

p49k 9y ago

The study you’re referencing on not being able to distinguish white and red wine was performed on undergraduate college students, not wine tasting experts.