5 ms·

I'm including both corporate chains like TGIF and Chipotle, in addition to: * that sushi restaurant in the strip mall, that serves you rice cooked with fluorid

I'm including both corporate chains like TGIF and Chipotle, in addition to: * that sushi restaurant in the strip mall, that serves you rice cooked with fluoride water and soy sauce with sodium beonzoate * that "gourmet" deli that serves you sodium nitrate-laden on top of pesticide- and preservative-laden bread with a yellow #5 pickle. * that coffee shop that pours a hot beverage at 140F/60C into a plastic-lined, plastic-lidded cup. * that cafeteria in that corporate office that heats up frozen soup in a plastic bag before pouring it into the serving pot. * and so on Our food system resembles a Brave New World-esque intelligence test that most of us are failing.

AstralStorm 9y ago
And again, this miniscule phthalate level increases matters why? (Even cumulative.) Please answer with solid evidence of morbidity. Guardian did not do the homework. The studies on phthalates are quite tenuous for adults. There are a few which link to developmental problems. This is a very different case from children chewing on phthalate containing foams or sleeping in such. Which has been quite clearly linked. The risk is mainly for pregnant women then? Regardless, most of the problems would be related to packaging. Ditch styrofoam and plastic. Use ones certified phthalate free. Oh and Guardian published this some years ago in a better way. Misrepresenting evidence then too. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/feb/10/phthalates-plastics-chemicals-research-analysis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/feb/10/phthala... Sounds like some sort of agenda. The other quotes border on conspiracy theory.
- forgotmypw 9y ago
  Not sure what kind of agenda you are implying... Prematurely stop plastic use in food production/packaging before we are completely sure it affects our health negatively? All I know is that this is new, untested input into a 4-billion-year-old tangle of spaghetti code. If you are confident being the guinea pig, since "human health effects of phthalates are not yet fully known but are being studied," be my guest. * Di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate is listed as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen" * Current levels of seven phthalates posed "minimal" concern for causing reproductive effects. * High levels of one phthalate, di-n-butyl phthalate, may adversely affect human reproduction or development. Source: https://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version/chemicals.php?id=24 https://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version/chemicals.php?id=24 Source source: https://www.google.com/search?q=phthalate+site:nih.gov https://www.google.com/search?q=phthalate+site:nih.gov
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    Note that high levels of the specific phthalate is of relevance to workers in plastic factories. There's really no way to get them that high up otherwise. For an adult of course. It is different for a newborn fed and hydrated by pvc tube. I agree about potential carcinogen. How about actual carcinogen evidence though? Should be easy to get, scrutinize plastic workers.
    - forgotmypw 9y ago
      You seem to imply that this research has not already been carried out, or is non-obvious... >The reinforced plastic plant workers showed, in terms of semen quality, better values in the percentages of live sperm and immotile sperm, whereas they had a reduced percentage of normally shaped sperm. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2980348 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2980348 Source source: https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nih.gov+plastic+workers https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nih.gov+plastic+workers
origami777 9y ago
Are they really the same? It's hard for me to believe that. Seems like fast food chains would have the things you list + many other bad things.
- forgotmypw 9y ago
  It really is not that much different. Both are buying and reselling large quantities of standardized food products, the production and lifecycle of which are part of the problem. The restaurant supply company is selling to dozens and hundreds of restaurants, so it is kind of like a fast food chain, just not under the same logo. The restaurant needs twenty five-pound bags of prepared chicken every day. The supplier sources this chicken meat, spices, seasonings, and synthetic chemicals from a number of distributors, who source the components from a number of other suppliers, who eventually source them from the farms. The farms are producing for volume, so quality is not really in the picture, as long as it meets the inspection standards and government regulations. It is not only the finished product, but also the sub-components, that spend days, months, sometimes years in the supply chain, being processed, preserved, and homogenized, and processed again.
  - a_t48 9y ago
    This isn't a problem unique to restaurants, though - at some point you have to get your own ingredients from that supply chain unless you have the money or time to do otherwise.
    - forgotmypw 9y ago
      Yes, you are correct. Just like with software, you have to check and verify all the sources, or at least have someone do it for you. This may mean buying from the farmer's market, or going to the farm itself. If you can't do that, you have to find a trustworthy supplier and take their word for it.
vorpalhex 9y ago
> fluoride water So... tap water? Most countries add flouride to their tap water because it improves dental health. Unless you're a redneck screaming about alien mind control, that isn't some crazy scary chemical compound. > soy sauce with sodium beonzoate *Sodium Benzoate Again, perfectly boring salt that reduces pH. Not some scary mind control substance, just a salt you can produce at home. > sodium nitrate-laden Every preserved meat in the world. Also found naturally in Chile. > pesticide- and preservative-laden bread Pretty much been the case since humans found out about vinegar. I wouldn't call < 1% in total to be "laden" though, unless you're eating an awful lot of bread. > yellow #5 You realize that was a myth that it would reduce your sperm count right? There is a segment of the population that has a sensitivity to it, but it's pretty small. > heats up frozen soup in a plastic bag Again, most plastics are rated for this. Also helps cut down on glass shards in your food, or badly sanitized cookware giving you the runs. I'm sorry, but your points here aren't some ultimate "gotcha", they're just anti-scientific scaremongering. I'd tell you to stock up on tinfoil for those hats, but I heard that causes alzheimer's.
- endocrinethrow1 9y ago
  Note the "...respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says..." in the site guidelines. Calling parent a "redneck screaming about alien mind control" is definitely not this. Many developed countries have either stopped fluoridating their water or never chosen to add fluoride to their tap water supply, for various reasons.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  > > sodium nitrate-laden > Every preserved meat in the world. Also found naturally in Chile. Just because it's common or "natural" doesn't mean it's not bad for you. There are legitimate health concerns about nitrate use in foods.[1][2] >> heats up frozen soup in a plastic bag > Again, most plastics are rated for this. Also helps cut down on glass shards in your food, or badly sanitized cookware giving you the runs. How do you know which plastics are being used by the restaurants you eat at? And what does "being rated" for heating actually mean? Does it mean that no plastic or other chemicals from the bag actually gets in to the food? As a consumer I have no way of knowing. > I'd tell you to stock up on tinfoil for those hats, but I heard that causes alzheimer's. This sort of snark is really not welcome on HN. Please try to be civil. [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/01/bacon-cancer-processed-meats-nitrates-nitrites-sausages https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/01/bacon-cancer-pr... [2] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510960
LandR 9y ago
> Our food system resembles a Brave New World-esque intelligence test that most of us are failing. Agreed, it's very sad. I had a friend who took me to this burger place for lunch once, that he said was a gourmet burger place. It was utter shit, it was the worst looking, cheapest looking patties I've seen outside of a McDonalds, cooked to the point of worthlessness then a few pieces of limp looking salad on top. Then the guy wants to charge proper burger place prices. (£10 / $15). Now, I don't mind $15-$20 for a burger, if it's a good burger but this was just atrocious, and my friend had no idea how bad it was. I don't know what some peoples baseline is for food quality, but it's way too low.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> I'm including both corporate chains like TGIF and Chipotle I would not consider those, nor e.g. a diner, to be a “restaurant”. Restaurant implies having a chef; chefs are active in sourcing and preparing their food. If someone is heating up pre-made things they’re a cook, not a chef, and work at something that isn’t a restaurant.
- dfxm12 9y ago
  OK, this is moot, though, since the article talks about "dining out" and doesn't distinguish based on your restaurant classification.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > the article talks about "dining out" and doesn't distinguish based on your restaurant classification I think the gist of this discussion is that lumping together fast food and restaurants muddies the study. It is like saying "eating mushrooms increases levels of poisoning" because one didn't differentiate between edible and non-edible fungi. These findings are applicable for people who regularly eat industrial food, to whom I can't imagine this is surprising.

AstralStorm 9y ago

And again, this miniscule phthalate level increases matters why? (Even cumulative.) Please answer with solid evidence of morbidity. Guardian did not do the homework. The studies on phthalates are quite tenuous for adults. There are a few which link to developmental problems. This is a very different case from children chewing on phthalate containing foams or sleeping in such. Which has been quite clearly linked. The risk is mainly for pregnant women then? Regardless, most of the problems would be related to packaging. Ditch styrofoam and plastic. Use ones certified phthalate free. Oh and Guardian published this some years ago in a better way. Misrepresenting evidence then too. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/feb/10/phthalates-plastics-chemicals-research-analysis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/feb/10/phthala... Sounds like some sort of agenda. The other quotes border on conspiracy theory.

forgotmypw 9y ago
Not sure what kind of agenda you are implying... Prematurely stop plastic use in food production/packaging before we are completely sure it affects our health negatively? All I know is that this is new, untested input into a 4-billion-year-old tangle of spaghetti code. If you are confident being the guinea pig, since "human health effects of phthalates are not yet fully known but are being studied," be my guest. * Di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate is listed as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen" * Current levels of seven phthalates posed "minimal" concern for causing reproductive effects. * High levels of one phthalate, di-n-butyl phthalate, may adversely affect human reproduction or development. Source: https://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version/chemicals.php?id=24 https://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version/chemicals.php?id=24 Source source: https://www.google.com/search?q=phthalate+site:nih.gov https://www.google.com/search?q=phthalate+site:nih.gov
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  Note that high levels of the specific phthalate is of relevance to workers in plastic factories. There's really no way to get them that high up otherwise. For an adult of course. It is different for a newborn fed and hydrated by pvc tube. I agree about potential carcinogen. How about actual carcinogen evidence though? Should be easy to get, scrutinize plastic workers.
  - forgotmypw 9y ago
    You seem to imply that this research has not already been carried out, or is non-obvious... >The reinforced plastic plant workers showed, in terms of semen quality, better values in the percentages of live sperm and immotile sperm, whereas they had a reduced percentage of normally shaped sperm. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2980348 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2980348 Source source: https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nih.gov+plastic+workers https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nih.gov+plastic+workers

origami777 9y ago

Are they really the same? It's hard for me to believe that. Seems like fast food chains would have the things you list + many other bad things.

forgotmypw 9y ago
It really is not that much different. Both are buying and reselling large quantities of standardized food products, the production and lifecycle of which are part of the problem. The restaurant supply company is selling to dozens and hundreds of restaurants, so it is kind of like a fast food chain, just not under the same logo. The restaurant needs twenty five-pound bags of prepared chicken every day. The supplier sources this chicken meat, spices, seasonings, and synthetic chemicals from a number of distributors, who source the components from a number of other suppliers, who eventually source them from the farms. The farms are producing for volume, so quality is not really in the picture, as long as it meets the inspection standards and government regulations. It is not only the finished product, but also the sub-components, that spend days, months, sometimes years in the supply chain, being processed, preserved, and homogenized, and processed again.
- a_t48 9y ago
  This isn't a problem unique to restaurants, though - at some point you have to get your own ingredients from that supply chain unless you have the money or time to do otherwise.
  - forgotmypw 9y ago
    Yes, you are correct. Just like with software, you have to check and verify all the sources, or at least have someone do it for you. This may mean buying from the farmer's market, or going to the farm itself. If you can't do that, you have to find a trustworthy supplier and take their word for it.

vorpalhex 9y ago

> fluoride water So... tap water? Most countries add flouride to their tap water because it improves dental health. Unless you're a redneck screaming about alien mind control, that isn't some crazy scary chemical compound. > soy sauce with sodium beonzoate *Sodium Benzoate Again, perfectly boring salt that reduces pH. Not some scary mind control substance, just a salt you can produce at home. > sodium nitrate-laden Every preserved meat in the world. Also found naturally in Chile. > pesticide- and preservative-laden bread Pretty much been the case since humans found out about vinegar. I wouldn't call < 1% in total to be "laden" though, unless you're eating an awful lot of bread. > yellow #5 You realize that was a myth that it would reduce your sperm count right? There is a segment of the population that has a sensitivity to it, but it's pretty small. > heats up frozen soup in a plastic bag Again, most plastics are rated for this. Also helps cut down on glass shards in your food, or badly sanitized cookware giving you the runs. I'm sorry, but your points here aren't some ultimate "gotcha", they're just anti-scientific scaremongering. I'd tell you to stock up on tinfoil for those hats, but I heard that causes alzheimer's.

endocrinethrow1 9y ago
Note the "...respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says..." in the site guidelines. Calling parent a "redneck screaming about alien mind control" is definitely not this. Many developed countries have either stopped fluoridating their water or never chosen to add fluoride to their tap water supply, for various reasons.
pmoriarty 9y ago
> > sodium nitrate-laden > Every preserved meat in the world. Also found naturally in Chile. Just because it's common or "natural" doesn't mean it's not bad for you. There are legitimate health concerns about nitrate use in foods.[1][2] >> heats up frozen soup in a plastic bag > Again, most plastics are rated for this. Also helps cut down on glass shards in your food, or badly sanitized cookware giving you the runs. How do you know which plastics are being used by the restaurants you eat at? And what does "being rated" for heating actually mean? Does it mean that no plastic or other chemicals from the bag actually gets in to the food? As a consumer I have no way of knowing. > I'd tell you to stock up on tinfoil for those hats, but I heard that causes alzheimer's. This sort of snark is really not welcome on HN. Please try to be civil. [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/01/bacon-cancer-processed-meats-nitrates-nitrites-sausages https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/01/bacon-cancer-pr... [2] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510960

LandR 9y ago

> Our food system resembles a Brave New World-esque intelligence test that most of us are failing. Agreed, it's very sad. I had a friend who took me to this burger place for lunch once, that he said was a gourmet burger place. It was utter shit, it was the worst looking, cheapest looking patties I've seen outside of a McDonalds, cooked to the point of worthlessness then a few pieces of limp looking salad on top. Then the guy wants to charge proper burger place prices. (£10 / $15). Now, I don't mind $15-$20 for a burger, if it's a good burger but this was just atrocious, and my friend had no idea how bad it was. I don't know what some peoples baseline is for food quality, but it's way too low.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> I'm including both corporate chains like TGIF and Chipotle I would not consider those, nor e.g. a diner, to be a “restaurant”. Restaurant implies having a chef; chefs are active in sourcing and preparing their food. If someone is heating up pre-made things they’re a cook, not a chef, and work at something that isn’t a restaurant.

dfxm12 9y ago
OK, this is moot, though, since the article talks about "dining out" and doesn't distinguish based on your restaurant classification.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > the article talks about "dining out" and doesn't distinguish based on your restaurant classification I think the gist of this discussion is that lumping together fast food and restaurants muddies the study. It is like saying "eating mushrooms increases levels of poisoning" because one didn't differentiate between edible and non-edible fungi. These findings are applicable for people who regularly eat industrial food, to whom I can't imagine this is surprising.