4 ms·

There's a huge difference in no work experience and no experience at all. Hiring college grads without a lot of real world experience gives you the opportunity

There's a huge difference in no work experience and no experience at all. Hiring college grads without a lot of real world experience gives you the opportunity to mentor and train in good methodologies that I find older developers will refuse to implement without incessant fighting. It is more work initially but the long run payoff has been fantastic in my experience. When you manage based on yearly expectations that are attainable life is so much more enjoyable. The biggest key is management and upper management buy-in. Sadly that's exponentially more difficult to get when most places see IT as a sunk-cost instead of an opportunity to deliver more efficient workflows internally and externally. I'm on the fence about working with developers that don't have college degrees. The gaps in their skill-set frequently causes issues no matter how much experience they've had.

protonimitate 9y ago
I'm curious to hear what kinds of skill gaps you see and the severity of issues they bring, and if there are common knowledge gaps or it's more random.
- Brockenstein 9y ago
  I would have to assume, coming from that sort of background. College makes you take classes and learn skills that "you" don't care about or don't see immediate value to, but you have to do it anyway. Maybe not all of them are CS classes either. It's possible for a self-taught to developer to learn a lot but stay in their safe bubbles of expertise, work or school can push you out of your comfort zones quite frequently and force you to expand your horizons. In a way that you might not do for yourself, at least not all the time. Individual experiences may vary. I'm not saying there aren't some amazing talented self-taught programmers just you have to be very careful in assuming that they all are.
  - misterhtmlcss 9y ago
    As an evolving self-taught I think it's too early for me to speak confidently on this topic, however I will add my two sense for what it's worth. Additional background; I'm the local Admin for a Free Code Camp (FCC) group so I meet lots of aspiring self-taughts btw. 1. Many many self-taughts (ST?) aren't joining coding for passion, they are joining because they want to change careers and think coding is easy. They think this (IMO) because it's famous for hiring non-graduates. 2. They then proceed to join groups like FCC in massive surges that closely correlates what's happening in the job market; which doesn't fuel me with confidence in their conviction to become a ST dev. It's kind of like joining the gym Jan 1; if you wanted to be healthy why wait until your NYE resolution. So like a gym 90% of those that join then go silent in our group nearly immediately. 3. I'd say about 1-4% of those who join even complete FCC and of those I genuinely believe they've all found success. Ironically FCC draws in a ton of weak links because it's free, but also because it's free very very few of us ever finish and get a certificate. If I had a chance to hire an ST that was junior I'd definitely be curious about their story. Their story will tell you so much about the 'man' they are: - Did they go balls deep and pay $15k+ and give up sleep and life for 3+ months? What did they do afterwards? What did they do before? - Did they chip away at FCC for 1-2 years building out a portfolio, FINISHING at least the FE certificate? You see where I'm going here? In my life I've never met someone who did truly well without an internal desire to get it done and that can't be taught. The real advantage of an ST can be their resilience and determination to do what is needed to succeed and if you ignore that amazing skill/asset just because he's without a paper then it's definitely a mistake. So while I'm not advocating for STs over Grads, I am saying they can be very special and valuable assets that are worth taking a long look at when you get their resume. You'll see more of me soon; I'm quiting my job May 1 to focus on finishing my skills to a commercial standard, which I've waited two years to do; I'm finally near the finish line and I can't be more excited to be going full time on my passion. This was written on my phone; so apologies if I'm vague, impolite or grammatically a fail. It's hard when you're trying to work and quickly add two cents of value on a topic you love.
    - Brockenstein 9y ago
      No I think this is also a great point. I didn't even think about all the people who try to give programming a go because they hope it's easy and they know it's lucrative, but don't really have the stomach for it. And I would have to assume at least some of those people half ass it and still try to get jobs and exaggerate their abilities hoping they can fake it till they make it, never mind the faking will likely be indefinite. I'm sure people in HR have seen more than their fair share. Folks who have any visibility into bootcamps or anything probably see it. I think programmers as a class can be a bit insulated from the reality of how many people make the attempt or try to get jobs they're patently not qualified for relying on the potential for self-taught, non-degree'd, programmers to still have a shot.
- justherefortart 9y ago
  Everything tends to come more slowly. And having to explain things that are very rudimentary gets old quickly (db normalization for example). The smart ones pick it up very quickly, so it's just part of the learning experience. The downside is a lack of structure to most things as well. Learning everything through online blogs instead of deep dives into the tools and frameworks they're using. Also a more limited skillset across technologies. They tend to be focused on the one answer they've learned, not having the time typically to branch out to other tools. I say this as a mediocre developer myself who has many shortcomings. Although I'm getting away from development as much as I can.

protonimitate 9y ago

I'm curious to hear what kinds of skill gaps you see and the severity of issues they bring, and if there are common knowledge gaps or it's more random.

Brockenstein 9y ago
I would have to assume, coming from that sort of background. College makes you take classes and learn skills that "you" don't care about or don't see immediate value to, but you have to do it anyway. Maybe not all of them are CS classes either. It's possible for a self-taught to developer to learn a lot but stay in their safe bubbles of expertise, work or school can push you out of your comfort zones quite frequently and force you to expand your horizons. In a way that you might not do for yourself, at least not all the time. Individual experiences may vary. I'm not saying there aren't some amazing talented self-taught programmers just you have to be very careful in assuming that they all are.
- misterhtmlcss 9y ago
  As an evolving self-taught I think it's too early for me to speak confidently on this topic, however I will add my two sense for what it's worth. Additional background; I'm the local Admin for a Free Code Camp (FCC) group so I meet lots of aspiring self-taughts btw. 1. Many many self-taughts (ST?) aren't joining coding for passion, they are joining because they want to change careers and think coding is easy. They think this (IMO) because it's famous for hiring non-graduates. 2. They then proceed to join groups like FCC in massive surges that closely correlates what's happening in the job market; which doesn't fuel me with confidence in their conviction to become a ST dev. It's kind of like joining the gym Jan 1; if you wanted to be healthy why wait until your NYE resolution. So like a gym 90% of those that join then go silent in our group nearly immediately. 3. I'd say about 1-4% of those who join even complete FCC and of those I genuinely believe they've all found success. Ironically FCC draws in a ton of weak links because it's free, but also because it's free very very few of us ever finish and get a certificate. If I had a chance to hire an ST that was junior I'd definitely be curious about their story. Their story will tell you so much about the 'man' they are: - Did they go balls deep and pay $15k+ and give up sleep and life for 3+ months? What did they do afterwards? What did they do before? - Did they chip away at FCC for 1-2 years building out a portfolio, FINISHING at least the FE certificate? You see where I'm going here? In my life I've never met someone who did truly well without an internal desire to get it done and that can't be taught. The real advantage of an ST can be their resilience and determination to do what is needed to succeed and if you ignore that amazing skill/asset just because he's without a paper then it's definitely a mistake. So while I'm not advocating for STs over Grads, I am saying they can be very special and valuable assets that are worth taking a long look at when you get their resume. You'll see more of me soon; I'm quiting my job May 1 to focus on finishing my skills to a commercial standard, which I've waited two years to do; I'm finally near the finish line and I can't be more excited to be going full time on my passion. This was written on my phone; so apologies if I'm vague, impolite or grammatically a fail. It's hard when you're trying to work and quickly add two cents of value on a topic you love.
  - Brockenstein 9y ago
    No I think this is also a great point. I didn't even think about all the people who try to give programming a go because they hope it's easy and they know it's lucrative, but don't really have the stomach for it. And I would have to assume at least some of those people half ass it and still try to get jobs and exaggerate their abilities hoping they can fake it till they make it, never mind the faking will likely be indefinite. I'm sure people in HR have seen more than their fair share. Folks who have any visibility into bootcamps or anything probably see it. I think programmers as a class can be a bit insulated from the reality of how many people make the attempt or try to get jobs they're patently not qualified for relying on the potential for self-taught, non-degree'd, programmers to still have a shot.
justherefortart 9y ago
Everything tends to come more slowly. And having to explain things that are very rudimentary gets old quickly (db normalization for example). The smart ones pick it up very quickly, so it's just part of the learning experience. The downside is a lack of structure to most things as well. Learning everything through online blogs instead of deep dives into the tools and frameworks they're using. Also a more limited skillset across technologies. They tend to be focused on the one answer they've learned, not having the time typically to branch out to other tools. I say this as a mediocre developer myself who has many shortcomings. Although I'm getting away from development as much as I can.