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> Japanese workers and management always work together to perfect a process to such an extent that it becomes very easy to replicate it with a machine. It also

> Japanese workers and management always work together to perfect a process to such an extent that it becomes very easy to replicate it with a machine. It also means basically the workers behave more and more like a robot. I don't think it produces happy humans.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago
But getting a process as good as it can be should give people a feeling of pride and accomplishment. That should make them happy, no?
- sametmax 9y ago
  My guess is there is a balance somewhere. But given Japan has such a high suicide rate and depression I would not bet on them for having found it yet.
  - kumarvvr 9y ago
    Suicide rate and depression issues are, atleast in Japan, not usually related to work pressures, but due to social issues.
    - sametmax 9y ago
      When you spent 8 hours a day, half of your conscious time, in a situation, I have a hard time it has no impact on depression and suicide. If you have a fullfilling activity for 8 hours, it's hard for me to picture the rest of the day canceling it to the point you want to kill yourself. I tend to think it's a general context, and it includes work. But let's be honest, I haven't worked, let alone lived in Japan, so this is just uneducated gut feeling.
      - kumarvvr 9y ago
        Ohh no, the Japanese work wayyyy more than 8 hours a day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman though things are changing nowadays.
      - Johnny555 9y ago
        Some people are happier with rote, meaningless work. I have a relative who for 40 years has done the exact same job -- he drives a large dump truck from a stone pile in a rock quarry up to the crusher, dumps his load, and repeats, endlessly. He's had many opportunities to transfer to other positions, but he enjoys his "meaningless" work. He's retiring soon, which is good since the company has been testing an automated truck.
kumarvvr 9y ago
More and more like a robot, to some extent, but more and more skilled. This, I believe, instills a sense of pride and accomplishment. And when the same worker is rotated to another job, there again, he builds his skills. Of course, some may be unhappy, but I don't see any particularly negative aspect to being process oriented. Moreover, even with the process automated, often, a finishing touch is given by the operator. And, often, Japanese manufacturing facilities, depend on human skill and ingenuity to extract maximum quality from the process, even if the process is heavily automated. In addition to all the above, one unique aspect of the Japanese workforce and management, and I have seen this first hand, is that even the lowest level worker can freely give his inputs regarding a process and then the upper level workers, engineers and managers actually listen and discuss the inputs. In the plants that I have been to, engineering, design and workers are all located on the factory shop floor and are expected to work together in unison.
- sametmax 9y ago
  Yet, given the choice, would you rather learn to turn a screw perfectly 10000 times or learn programming ? If so can I hire you to do just that ? One seems way more satisfying than the other, not matter how good one can become at turning the screw.
  - kumarvvr 9y ago
    To be fair, most processes are slightly more complicated than turning a screw. Most processes maybe monotonous but are sufficiently complicated to require concentrated effort to get right. For example a turning operation or a milling operation.
    - sametmax 9y ago
      Sure. But I worked in a factory making screws for 2 years, that's why I'm taking about screws. Even this simple product has numerous subtle steps in its production. Yet on operator may very well do one to three different move, 10000 times a day. It's very tedious. Perfecting that is certainly satisfying, but it's hard for me to grasp how it can counteract the crushing experience of it all.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago

But getting a process as good as it can be should give people a feeling of pride and accomplishment. That should make them happy, no?

sametmax 9y ago
My guess is there is a balance somewhere. But given Japan has such a high suicide rate and depression I would not bet on them for having found it yet.
- kumarvvr 9y ago
  Suicide rate and depression issues are, atleast in Japan, not usually related to work pressures, but due to social issues.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    When you spent 8 hours a day, half of your conscious time, in a situation, I have a hard time it has no impact on depression and suicide. If you have a fullfilling activity for 8 hours, it's hard for me to picture the rest of the day canceling it to the point you want to kill yourself. I tend to think it's a general context, and it includes work. But let's be honest, I haven't worked, let alone lived in Japan, so this is just uneducated gut feeling.
    - kumarvvr 9y ago
      Ohh no, the Japanese work wayyyy more than 8 hours a day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman though things are changing nowadays.
    - Johnny555 9y ago
      Some people are happier with rote, meaningless work. I have a relative who for 40 years has done the exact same job -- he drives a large dump truck from a stone pile in a rock quarry up to the crusher, dumps his load, and repeats, endlessly. He's had many opportunities to transfer to other positions, but he enjoys his "meaningless" work. He's retiring soon, which is good since the company has been testing an automated truck.

kumarvvr 9y ago

More and more like a robot, to some extent, but more and more skilled. This, I believe, instills a sense of pride and accomplishment. And when the same worker is rotated to another job, there again, he builds his skills. Of course, some may be unhappy, but I don't see any particularly negative aspect to being process oriented. Moreover, even with the process automated, often, a finishing touch is given by the operator. And, often, Japanese manufacturing facilities, depend on human skill and ingenuity to extract maximum quality from the process, even if the process is heavily automated. In addition to all the above, one unique aspect of the Japanese workforce and management, and I have seen this first hand, is that even the lowest level worker can freely give his inputs regarding a process and then the upper level workers, engineers and managers actually listen and discuss the inputs. In the plants that I have been to, engineering, design and workers are all located on the factory shop floor and are expected to work together in unison.

sametmax 9y ago
Yet, given the choice, would you rather learn to turn a screw perfectly 10000 times or learn programming ? If so can I hire you to do just that ? One seems way more satisfying than the other, not matter how good one can become at turning the screw.
- kumarvvr 9y ago
  To be fair, most processes are slightly more complicated than turning a screw. Most processes maybe monotonous but are sufficiently complicated to require concentrated effort to get right. For example a turning operation or a milling operation.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    Sure. But I worked in a factory making screws for 2 years, that's why I'm taking about screws. Even this simple product has numerous subtle steps in its production. Yet on operator may very well do one to three different move, 10000 times a day. It's very tedious. Perfecting that is certainly satisfying, but it's hard for me to grasp how it can counteract the crushing experience of it all.