7 ms·

Will you be able to delete a user's data to be gdpr compliant, while still using IPFS ?

patrickaljord 9y ago
Pretty sure the goal of a distributed technology like that is to not be affected by laws such as gdrp enforced by centralized governments, same for drug laws etc.
- germanier 9y ago
  Yes, but "We put extra in effort into breaking the law." is among the worst possible things you can say to a court. That one is unable to fulfill their obligations because it's impossible by their own choice of technology is not an excuse. A user of such technology is still affected by laws if they ever get hands on them. This removes the incentive to use the technology apart from those that specifically (or by negligence) are out to break that law. I wouldn't want to attach my name to anything that I know will have major consequences for me personally.
  - hapnin 9y ago
    > I wouldn't want to attach my name to anything that I know will have major consequences for me personally. It's a good thing for all of us that Phil Zimmermann didn't feel that way.
    - pjc50 9y ago
      Phil Zimmermann didn't actually do anything illegal, if we believe that the export of PGP was done by other people.
      - hapnin 9y ago
        He knew he'd be targeted (and he was), legal or not. It's probably why whoever wrote Bitcoin used a nom de chiffere. http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/timeline/ http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/timeline/
- simias 9y ago
  The problem with that is that it often ends up being used mostly by people who want to specifically circumvent these laws unless there's some other incentive to attract vendor and shoppers for "legit" goods. How does OpenBazaar compare to something like ebay or alibaba in terms of both usability and fees? Does it have an edge? Also while I greatly value distributed infrastructure in general I'm not sure I see the advantage for an e-commerce platform. When I buy something through a respectable platform I like the guarantees provided by the 3rd party in case something goes wrong. It's actually a feature for me, not a drawback.
  - deltron3030 9y ago
    >When I buy something through a respectable platform I like the guarantees provided by the 3rd party in case something goes wrong. It's actually a feature for me, not a drawback. Isn't the guarantee already baked into smart contracts and escrow-like functionality? I mean that the deal, or money transfer only happens if both parties agree, e.g. you greenlighting the transaction after receiving and inspecting the good.
    - jstanley 9y ago
      It's not possible to do this trustlessly. What if the seller doesn't post the goods? What if the seller does post the goods but I say he didn't? How can the smart contract distinguish those two cases?
      - SXX 9y ago
        > It's not possible to do this trustlessly. It is possible as long as smart contract backed by money from both parties. Customer buy item for $5, but both seller and customer additionally put $10 each into contact and these money remain locked until both parties confirm that everything is fine. Once confirmed seller get his $5 and customer already have his goods, $10 become available for both parties again. This scheme worked on other online payment systems even decade ago and require zero trust. PS: This obviously just an example and not how it work on OpenBazaar and there is detailed post from developers in comments.
- turblety 9y ago
  I'd say the primary goal is to remain anonymous and retain your privacy, not evade government legislation, and those two are completely different things. [1] The general public are finally realising more and more how much big companies are misusing, selling, profiting from our data, evading our privacy for their own financial gain [2]. Having a distributed marketplace should also decentralise the data that is collected. I'm not saying that OpenBazaar doesn't expose/collect all data from sellers and buyers, I don't know, but it's a lot closer than a company like eBay that store and sell data (keeping it to themselves). Even if it is possible to see all of OpenBazaars data, it at least creates a fair playing field where everyone can see all of the data. Let's also have a look at Amazon. A company who lets retailers sell on their platform, only to undercut popular sellers when they discover a new gap in the market [3]. At the same time gladly taking a cut of your sales [4]. Having a decentralised marketplace that is free to use, doesn't compete with its sellers and creates an even playing field by sharing all data with all users equally has to be a benefit to society? 1. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=why+should+I+care+about+my+privacy https://duckduckgo.com/?q=why+should+I+care+about+my+privacy 2. https://www.pcworld.com/article/2986988/privacy/the-price-of-free-how-apple-facebook-microsoft-and-google-sell-you-to-advertisers.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/2986988/privacy/the-price-of... 3. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/23/amazon-marketplace-third-party-seller-faustian-pact https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/23/amazon-ma... 4. https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/sell-online/pricing.html/ref=UK_SOA_FAQ_pricing_pricing https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/sell-online/pricing.h...
  - dmos62 9y ago
    I'm happy to see the above summary of the principal benefits and motivations behind such trustless, private and decentralised systems. I think it's worth talking about the fact that the discussion too often degrades to "good people don't have anything to hide" or similar arguments. Such an attitude demonstrates incomprehension of just how much power these little pieces of data surrender to the upper tier of our stratified society. Examples of that would be banal, especially today.
- StreamBright 9y ago
  "not be affected by laws" Are you kidding? The will make ISP blacklist yuor IP ranges faster than you can spell decentralized. This is the fundamental issue with any "decentralized" service that it runs on a system that is controlled by governments and corporations. You can fool yourself into believing that this works but in practice they can stop you so many ways that it is not worth the effort even trying. Step 0 for any decentralized service is to create a point to point network that is fully operated by end users and there is no dependency on anything that is controlled by a government or a ISP/corporation. Good luck!
  - Hyva 9y ago
    You can mask and encrypt data going over the network. The only thing they can do is prevent usage of networks entirely.
  - Ajedi32 9y ago
    What IP ranges? IPFS is peer-to-peer. So unless you mean they'll blacklist the entire internet...
    - StreamBright 9y ago
      Yeah I understand. Few questions: - after I installed IPFS where does it connect first? - if both computers in a theoretical IPFS cluster are behind NAT how do you make them connect to each other without a 3rd publicly available node? Thanks in advance.

Pretty sure the goal of a distributed technology like that is to not be affected by laws such as gdrp enforced by centralized governments, same for drug laws etc.

germanier 9y ago
Yes, but "We put extra in effort into breaking the law." is among the worst possible things you can say to a court. That one is unable to fulfill their obligations because it's impossible by their own choice of technology is not an excuse. A user of such technology is still affected by laws if they ever get hands on them. This removes the incentive to use the technology apart from those that specifically (or by negligence) are out to break that law. I wouldn't want to attach my name to anything that I know will have major consequences for me personally.
- hapnin 9y ago
  > I wouldn't want to attach my name to anything that I know will have major consequences for me personally. It's a good thing for all of us that Phil Zimmermann didn't feel that way.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Phil Zimmermann didn't actually do anything illegal, if we believe that the export of PGP was done by other people.
    - hapnin 9y ago
      He knew he'd be targeted (and he was), legal or not. It's probably why whoever wrote Bitcoin used a nom de chiffere. http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/timeline/ http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/timeline/
simias 9y ago
The problem with that is that it often ends up being used mostly by people who want to specifically circumvent these laws unless there's some other incentive to attract vendor and shoppers for "legit" goods. How does OpenBazaar compare to something like ebay or alibaba in terms of both usability and fees? Does it have an edge? Also while I greatly value distributed infrastructure in general I'm not sure I see the advantage for an e-commerce platform. When I buy something through a respectable platform I like the guarantees provided by the 3rd party in case something goes wrong. It's actually a feature for me, not a drawback.
- deltron3030 9y ago
  >When I buy something through a respectable platform I like the guarantees provided by the 3rd party in case something goes wrong. It's actually a feature for me, not a drawback. Isn't the guarantee already baked into smart contracts and escrow-like functionality? I mean that the deal, or money transfer only happens if both parties agree, e.g. you greenlighting the transaction after receiving and inspecting the good.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    It's not possible to do this trustlessly. What if the seller doesn't post the goods? What if the seller does post the goods but I say he didn't? How can the smart contract distinguish those two cases?
    - SXX 9y ago
      > It's not possible to do this trustlessly. It is possible as long as smart contract backed by money from both parties. Customer buy item for $5, but both seller and customer additionally put $10 each into contact and these money remain locked until both parties confirm that everything is fine. Once confirmed seller get his $5 and customer already have his goods, $10 become available for both parties again. This scheme worked on other online payment systems even decade ago and require zero trust. PS: This obviously just an example and not how it work on OpenBazaar and there is detailed post from developers in comments.
turblety 9y ago
I'd say the primary goal is to remain anonymous and retain your privacy, not evade government legislation, and those two are completely different things. [1] The general public are finally realising more and more how much big companies are misusing, selling, profiting from our data, evading our privacy for their own financial gain [2]. Having a distributed marketplace should also decentralise the data that is collected. I'm not saying that OpenBazaar doesn't expose/collect all data from sellers and buyers, I don't know, but it's a lot closer than a company like eBay that store and sell data (keeping it to themselves). Even if it is possible to see all of OpenBazaars data, it at least creates a fair playing field where everyone can see all of the data. Let's also have a look at Amazon. A company who lets retailers sell on their platform, only to undercut popular sellers when they discover a new gap in the market [3]. At the same time gladly taking a cut of your sales [4]. Having a decentralised marketplace that is free to use, doesn't compete with its sellers and creates an even playing field by sharing all data with all users equally has to be a benefit to society? 1. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=why+should+I+care+about+my+privacy https://duckduckgo.com/?q=why+should+I+care+about+my+privacy 2. https://www.pcworld.com/article/2986988/privacy/the-price-of-free-how-apple-facebook-microsoft-and-google-sell-you-to-advertisers.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/2986988/privacy/the-price-of... 3. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/23/amazon-marketplace-third-party-seller-faustian-pact https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/23/amazon-ma... 4. https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/sell-online/pricing.html/ref=UK_SOA_FAQ_pricing_pricing https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/sell-online/pricing.h...
- dmos62 9y ago
  I'm happy to see the above summary of the principal benefits and motivations behind such trustless, private and decentralised systems. I think it's worth talking about the fact that the discussion too often degrades to "good people don't have anything to hide" or similar arguments. Such an attitude demonstrates incomprehension of just how much power these little pieces of data surrender to the upper tier of our stratified society. Examples of that would be banal, especially today.
StreamBright 9y ago
"not be affected by laws" Are you kidding? The will make ISP blacklist yuor IP ranges faster than you can spell decentralized. This is the fundamental issue with any "decentralized" service that it runs on a system that is controlled by governments and corporations. You can fool yourself into believing that this works but in practice they can stop you so many ways that it is not worth the effort even trying. Step 0 for any decentralized service is to create a point to point network that is fully operated by end users and there is no dependency on anything that is controlled by a government or a ISP/corporation. Good luck!
- Hyva 9y ago
  You can mask and encrypt data going over the network. The only thing they can do is prevent usage of networks entirely.
- Ajedi32 9y ago
  What IP ranges? IPFS is peer-to-peer. So unless you mean they'll blacklist the entire internet...
  - StreamBright 9y ago
    Yeah I understand. Few questions: - after I installed IPFS where does it connect first? - if both computers in a theoretical IPFS cluster are behind NAT how do you make them connect to each other without a 3rd publicly available node? Thanks in advance.