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the Japanese, try to limit automation because it "is expensive and is statistically inversely correlated to quality." Their approach is to get the process right
by Johnny555 9y ago
the Japanese, try to limit automation because it "is expensive and is statistically inversely correlated to quality." Their approach is to get the process right first, then bring in the robots — the opposite of Musk's.
Of course, they use Japanese workers, which have a completely different work ethic than American workers.
I say that having worked in an American assembly line (not automotive though). I haven't worked in Japan myself, but the attention to detail of Japanese workers in even the most menial of jobs is amazing.
- exelius 9y agoFrom what I’ve seen, Musk has actually been flying Japanese engineers into the Gigafactory (no joke!) They literally have their own buses going back and forth to the airport.
- modeless 9y agoIt's no secret that the gigafactory is a partnership with Panasonic.
- Reason077 9y agoIn fact, my understanding is that Panasonic own and operate the cell production lines at the Gigafactory (which Tesla then take and assemble into packs in another part of the factory). Presumably these people will be Panasonic employees.
- kchoudhu 9y ago> Of course, they use Japanese workers, which have a completely different work ethic than American workers. The Japanese manufacture most of their American market cars in America, using American labor. Take your biases somewhere else, this isn't the place for them.
- jacquesm 9y agoThe big differences are union versus non-union and quality control, not necessarily the nationality of the workers.
- eps 9y agoYou aggressively refuting a point the OP didn't make.
- fsloth 9y agoCultural differences were an explicit problem when Toyota started to bring their manufacturing to America. This itself does not take any stand on work ethic, etc. Just that the Toyota system was a well designed totality that depended on the japanese culture as a necessary primer to get everything else working. Culture differences are a real thing, and human processes are non-trivial to transport directly for this reason. Training is of course the solution, but this needs to be explicitly taken into account - not just presume that everyone will behave automatically the same if they are given job titles and a factory floor where to operate.
- gambiting 9y agoJust looking at cars - the assembly quality of Japanese cars(Toyotas especially) lags far behind even French cars, and that's saying something. They are extremely robust mechanically(engine/transmission/suspension/drivetrain) but in a cold climate a Toyota will rust through 10x quicker than a Peugeot will, with Japanese cars using thin, minimal welds and little to no rust protection, plus in terms of panel gaps they are again far behind European cars. There certainly is attention to detail, just not in every aspect of car building.
- jacquesm 9y agoI would not hold up French cars as the paragon of assembly quality. And I'm saying that as a huge Citroen fan (I've owned many different models, 2CV, DS, ID, CX, XM, C5, C8). German cars are substantially better in quality, and finding high mileage German or Japanese cars is easy, finding French or Italian high mileage cars is much more rare.
- masklinn 9y ago> I would not hold up French cars as the paragon of assembly quality. Isn't that the point of GP's comment? They're not saying french cars are well assembled, they're saying japanese cars are even worse: > the assembly quality of Japanese cars lags far behind even French cars, and that's saying something (emphasis mine)
- jacquesm 9y agoAnd then goes on to say this is mostly limited to rust, which French cars used to do pretty badly but using better quality steel, paints and in some cases galvanization cured that problem. French cars haven't rusted in decades. But that doesn't mean their assembly quality is better than the Japanese. And I'm not convinced that Japanese cars are so bad in the rust department either. The last batch of really badly rusting cars - ironically - were Mercedeses from the early 00's. Mercedes totally missed the boat on the water based paint front and got it dramatically wrong leading to a ton of re-work and expensive warranty issues.
- 9y ago
- LoSboccacc 9y agothere's also training to consider. japanese automotive worker have more training, less turnaround than other workers, a greater incentive to stick with a single company because of the "honor rules" that drive their planned careers and in general they are rewarded to optimized their workflow instead of berated with even more work. also, local manufacturer where I live are famous for messing up hiring non qualified workers. Panda had a recall because seats weren't correctly screwed in, for example. most of the time when you dig the faults are in the manual part of the lines. And the Alfa I drive has only one misaligned component, and it's the manually placed windshield - the alignment mark are off more than an inch! that's not to say that the problem is in the workers themselves, because their training and their efficiency is part of how the company configure the plant, but it's not just the work ethic of individual workers, more like the work culture of the whole company
- kumarvvr 9y agoI have visited a few factories in Japan and have seen manufacturing of components like heavy duty pumps and gas turbine blades. You are absolutely right. The work ethic of Japanese workers is awesome. I am an engineer and I am damn sure that the Japanese use humans to perfect a process and then replace them with a robot, with the same human manning the robot. Japanese workers and management always work together to perfect a process to such an extent that it becomes very easy to replicate it with a machine. Its very inspiring to see the Japanese work.
- sametmax 9y ago> Japanese workers and management always work together to perfect a process to such an extent that it becomes very easy to replicate it with a machine. It also means basically the workers behave more and more like a robot. I don't think it produces happy humans.
- JustSomeNobody 9y agoBut getting a process as good as it can be should give people a feeling of pride and accomplishment. That should make them happy, no?
- sametmax 9y agoMy guess is there is a balance somewhere. But given Japan has such a high suicide rate and depression I would not bet on them for having found it yet.
- kumarvvr 9y agoSuicide rate and depression issues are, atleast in Japan, not usually related to work pressures, but due to social issues.
- sametmax 9y agoWhen you spent 8 hours a day, half of your conscious time, in a situation, I have a hard time it has no impact on depression and suicide. If you have a fullfilling activity for 8 hours, it's hard for me to picture the rest of the day canceling it to the point you want to kill yourself. I tend to think it's a general context, and it includes work. But let's be honest, I haven't worked, let alone lived in Japan, so this is just uneducated gut feeling.
- nmeofthestate 9y agoJapan has successfully exported its processes to non-Japanese countries, so "Americans can't build cars good" is not a good argument.
- jacquesm 9y agoThey were American processes before they became Japanese processes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
- 20after4 9y agoThis American Life did a couple of really good stories about NUMI, the ex-gm factory where Toyota attempted to export their process. Interestingly, this it's the same factory where Tesla builds it's cars today. Spoiler: many challenges to getting Americans to "build cars good" under GM management. 1. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/403/nummi https://www.thisamericanlife.org/403/nummi 2. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015