6 ms·

I think part of the problem is the titles themselves... "Senior" implies "Highly Experienced" meaning "lots of years of experience". Whereas it's completely p

I think part of the problem is the titles themselves... "Senior" implies "Highly Experienced" meaning "lots of years of experience". Whereas it's completely possible for a person with 3-4 years of experience to be a "Very Good Engineer" within their specific domain and be as valuable, respected, listened-to, etc. as a "Senior Engineer". It doesn't happen often, but it happens. If we had titles more like "Apprentice", "Journeyman", and "Master" Software Engineer, then we wouldn't have this issue. Someone could be a Journeyman after 2 years or 4 depending on how rapidly they progressed through their "apprenticeship" phase, and to "Master" as soon as they had completed sufficiently complex work to have completed a "masterpiece" equivalent.

bweitzman 9y ago
Those titles are gendered, unfortunately. If we want such a system, we should adopt new titles that are more inclusive.
- grzm 9y ago
  AFAICS, the only one that's explicitly gendered is "journeyman". We've had a pretty good track record swapping out "person" in such situations when it's an issue. One might take issue with "master", and some senses of "master" are gendered, but some are not, such as senses 1c (particularly applicable here) and 1d: > "c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices (see 1apprentice 1b)" > "d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate (see 1consummate 1) skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master
  - bweitzman 9y ago
    The word caries with it a history of a workforce dominated by men. If there's going to be a new made up system for standardizing and measuring the proficiency of software developers, then we may as well make up new words too that don't have this baggage.
    - grzm 9y ago
      I agree that language is important for effective communication. I also am cognizant of how language changes over time, in meaning, connotation, usage, morphology. One can find problematic usage in a lot of places if one chooses to look. I don't believe that's what you're doing here, and don't mean to put forth some reductio ad absurdum argument. I'm interested to learn what heuristic you use to decide what language is acceptable and what needs to be changed. Would you mind sharing?
    - jdmichal 9y ago
      > If there's going to be a new made up system for standardizing and measuring the proficiency of software developers, then we may as well make up new words too that don't have this baggage. This proposal is explicitly not making up a new system, but rather adopting an existing one.
- a_t48 9y ago
  Do you have better suggestions?
- gcatalfamo 9y ago
  Journeyperson? Next we’re gonna call mom and dad “parent and parent”
  - andai 9y ago
    Mom and dad? Did you just assume my upbringing?
  - SolaceQuantum 9y ago
    I mean, why not call my parent my parent instead of my mom or dad if my mom or dad don’t identify as cis? “This is my parent, Alex” is reasonable.
    - gcatalfamo 9y ago
      I'd rather have two dads, two moms, a mom and a dad...give people a name, a role, and not live in such emotionless and unlabelled society.
- briandear 9y ago
  Calm down. You are part of the problem. You piss off otherwise inclusive and reasonable people with such nonsense. JourneyMAN doesn’t mean an actual “man.” That is an archaic interpretation to suggest a journeyman means “man.” We don’t call “fishermen” “fisherpersons” — that’s just silly. You can have female fisherman.
  - whostolemyhat 9y ago
    Cool, so you'd have no problem if the title everyone had to use was journeywoman? You could have male journeywoman, so there'd be no problem there.
    - Double_a_92 9y ago
      If it had a historical background and was a common word in everyday language, I guess not. If however you would just call it like that to make it female on purpose and out of defiance... Then I guess I wouldn't accept it.
    - salawat 9y ago
      Just stop, please. The point of journeyman in connection to a trade is as a point on a scale of relative skill and has no meaning in the place of determing the accidental characteristics of the wielder of the title EXCEPT relative competency in the trade. "Man" has been a catch all for human practitioner when who the practitioner is isn't essential to the context. The title of journeyman elevates whomever bears it in the eyes of a trade. It grants equivalence no matter whom it is applied to. If you wish to call yourself a journeywoman, do so. Don't be surprised when the rest of the trade still refers to you as a journeyman. Tools don't care who wields them. And finished works' quality depends only on skill. Not gender. Hate to see of what your views on Bachelor's Degrees are.
  - KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
    Isn't "-man" an abbreviation of "human"? Justin Trudeau made a gaffe recently when an audience member referred to "mankind" and he erroneously insisted that she instead use the term "peoplekind". Surely "humankind" would be the term requested, if one felt the need to be pedantic.
bad_user 9y ago
There's nothing wrong with "Senior". Lots of years of experience translate to having a proven track record of delivered value, along with management skills and experience of failure, things that can't be substituted by talent or knowledge acquired from reading about the works of others. > a person with 3-4 years of experience to be a "Very Good Engineer" Not the same thing — this is actually the same problem as with hiring practices that people love to hate. Good college degrees, open source contributions, algorithmic exercises during the interview, etc... are all designed to prove your worth. People don't like you for what you are, because you have to show them what you're capable of first. And with 3-4 years of experience, you can slap that "Master" label on your job title, but without being able to show something for it, people will just laugh at you. Also this trend of disrespecting the elderly is nothing new. Ageism is a thing and your opinion is actually in line with what the entire world is already thinking. Younger means cheaper, more prone to abuse, to working long hours and for many tasks just as capable as a more expensive senior. Of course, this is beneficial to young people, but the tragedy is that it doesn't last. You'll be playing a whole different tune in 5 years max, either because you'll end up competing with people that are 5 to 10 years younger and cheaper, or because the bubble will finally burst due to automation, leaving this sea of STEM graduates out of a job, just like steel workers in the nineties. We are automating ourselves as part of our job description, so it should be no surprise when it happens.
- Chyzwar 9y ago
  Lots of years of experience prove nothing. If someone was working for 10 years in Java backend apps, using outdated tech and in an environment that delivered value is secondary to risk, he/she is not senior. 3 years is minimum for getting close to being competent. I would argue that before that you will deliver very little.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    They are a senior engineer... in their specific scope. These levels are not exactly transferable necessarily. You should be able to trust that an experienced developer like this would be able to adapt to newer methods and API.
arkh 9y ago
I'm starting to think that the French Compagnons should add software developers to their list of professions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France if you don't know what it is.
- pjc50 9y ago
  English equivalent: https://www.wcit.org.uk/members/anon/new.html?destination=%2Findex.html https://www.wcit.org.uk/members/anon/new.html?destination=%2... "The Worshipful Company of Information Technologists". Slightly weird mapping of the traditional Establishment to our industry. Their home page includes items such as "Capercaillie Shoot" (not clear if this involves real grouse as it's in Essex), and "Report on the Funeral of Brigadier Tim Hackworth OBE PhD"
  - clappski 9y ago
    They have their weird titles because they're a livery company, similar to the Worshipful Company of Marketors (marketors.org/). Perhaps one the day WCIT will get a Royal Charter as well. You can read more about livery companies and their relationship to the City here: https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/about-the-city/history/Pages/livery-companies.aspx https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/about-the-city/history/Pages... I'm pretty sure the shooting is just clays, and not live birds.
jashmatthews 9y ago
> "Senior" implies "Highly Experienced" meaning "lots of years of experience". Not necessarily. Medicine has "Senior Resident" or similar in some countries as the last step before becoming an independent physician. Law and finance have senior associate before junior partner.
- pc86 9y ago
  Well we're talking about developers, not physicians or attorneys. We don't have multiple steps like resident, physician, associate, partner, etc.
  - bovermyer 9y ago
    Maybe we should.
  - jashmatthews 9y ago
    We should! Lots of bigger places have senior engineer, then staff engineer etc.
JustSomeNobody 9y ago
Interesting ideas. Maybe this would also change the hiring practices of Software Engineers. You wouldn't have to white board fizzbuzz if you were a "Master" S.E.

bweitzman 9y ago

Those titles are gendered, unfortunately. If we want such a system, we should adopt new titles that are more inclusive.

grzm 9y ago
AFAICS, the only one that's explicitly gendered is "journeyman". We've had a pretty good track record swapping out "person" in such situations when it's an issue. One might take issue with "master", and some senses of "master" are gendered, but some are not, such as senses 1c (particularly applicable here) and 1d: > "c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices (see 1apprentice 1b)" > "d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate (see 1consummate 1) skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master
- bweitzman 9y ago
  The word caries with it a history of a workforce dominated by men. If there's going to be a new made up system for standardizing and measuring the proficiency of software developers, then we may as well make up new words too that don't have this baggage.
  - grzm 9y ago
    I agree that language is important for effective communication. I also am cognizant of how language changes over time, in meaning, connotation, usage, morphology. One can find problematic usage in a lot of places if one chooses to look. I don't believe that's what you're doing here, and don't mean to put forth some reductio ad absurdum argument. I'm interested to learn what heuristic you use to decide what language is acceptable and what needs to be changed. Would you mind sharing?
  - jdmichal 9y ago
    > If there's going to be a new made up system for standardizing and measuring the proficiency of software developers, then we may as well make up new words too that don't have this baggage. This proposal is explicitly not making up a new system, but rather adopting an existing one.
a_t48 9y ago
Do you have better suggestions?
gcatalfamo 9y ago
Journeyperson? Next we’re gonna call mom and dad “parent and parent”
- andai 9y ago
  Mom and dad? Did you just assume my upbringing?
- SolaceQuantum 9y ago
  I mean, why not call my parent my parent instead of my mom or dad if my mom or dad don’t identify as cis? “This is my parent, Alex” is reasonable.
  - gcatalfamo 9y ago
    I'd rather have two dads, two moms, a mom and a dad...give people a name, a role, and not live in such emotionless and unlabelled society.
briandear 9y ago
Calm down. You are part of the problem. You piss off otherwise inclusive and reasonable people with such nonsense. JourneyMAN doesn’t mean an actual “man.” That is an archaic interpretation to suggest a journeyman means “man.” We don’t call “fishermen” “fisherpersons” — that’s just silly. You can have female fisherman.
- whostolemyhat 9y ago
  Cool, so you'd have no problem if the title everyone had to use was journeywoman? You could have male journeywoman, so there'd be no problem there.
  - Double_a_92 9y ago
    If it had a historical background and was a common word in everyday language, I guess not. If however you would just call it like that to make it female on purpose and out of defiance... Then I guess I wouldn't accept it.
  - salawat 9y ago
    Just stop, please. The point of journeyman in connection to a trade is as a point on a scale of relative skill and has no meaning in the place of determing the accidental characteristics of the wielder of the title EXCEPT relative competency in the trade. "Man" has been a catch all for human practitioner when who the practitioner is isn't essential to the context. The title of journeyman elevates whomever bears it in the eyes of a trade. It grants equivalence no matter whom it is applied to. If you wish to call yourself a journeywoman, do so. Don't be surprised when the rest of the trade still refers to you as a journeyman. Tools don't care who wields them. And finished works' quality depends only on skill. Not gender. Hate to see of what your views on Bachelor's Degrees are.
- KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
  Isn't "-man" an abbreviation of "human"? Justin Trudeau made a gaffe recently when an audience member referred to "mankind" and he erroneously insisted that she instead use the term "peoplekind". Surely "humankind" would be the term requested, if one felt the need to be pedantic.

bad_user 9y ago

There's nothing wrong with "Senior". Lots of years of experience translate to having a proven track record of delivered value, along with management skills and experience of failure, things that can't be substituted by talent or knowledge acquired from reading about the works of others. > a person with 3-4 years of experience to be a "Very Good Engineer" Not the same thing — this is actually the same problem as with hiring practices that people love to hate. Good college degrees, open source contributions, algorithmic exercises during the interview, etc... are all designed to prove your worth. People don't like you for what you are, because you have to show them what you're capable of first. And with 3-4 years of experience, you can slap that "Master" label on your job title, but without being able to show something for it, people will just laugh at you. Also this trend of disrespecting the elderly is nothing new. Ageism is a thing and your opinion is actually in line with what the entire world is already thinking. Younger means cheaper, more prone to abuse, to working long hours and for many tasks just as capable as a more expensive senior. Of course, this is beneficial to young people, but the tragedy is that it doesn't last. You'll be playing a whole different tune in 5 years max, either because you'll end up competing with people that are 5 to 10 years younger and cheaper, or because the bubble will finally burst due to automation, leaving this sea of STEM graduates out of a job, just like steel workers in the nineties. We are automating ourselves as part of our job description, so it should be no surprise when it happens.

Chyzwar 9y ago
Lots of years of experience prove nothing. If someone was working for 10 years in Java backend apps, using outdated tech and in an environment that delivered value is secondary to risk, he/she is not senior. 3 years is minimum for getting close to being competent. I would argue that before that you will deliver very little.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  They are a senior engineer... in their specific scope. These levels are not exactly transferable necessarily. You should be able to trust that an experienced developer like this would be able to adapt to newer methods and API.

arkh 9y ago

I'm starting to think that the French Compagnons should add software developers to their list of professions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France if you don't know what it is.

pjc50 9y ago
English equivalent: https://www.wcit.org.uk/members/anon/new.html?destination=%2Findex.html https://www.wcit.org.uk/members/anon/new.html?destination=%2... "The Worshipful Company of Information Technologists". Slightly weird mapping of the traditional Establishment to our industry. Their home page includes items such as "Capercaillie Shoot" (not clear if this involves real grouse as it's in Essex), and "Report on the Funeral of Brigadier Tim Hackworth OBE PhD"
- clappski 9y ago
  They have their weird titles because they're a livery company, similar to the Worshipful Company of Marketors (marketors.org/). Perhaps one the day WCIT will get a Royal Charter as well. You can read more about livery companies and their relationship to the City here: https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/about-the-city/history/Pages/livery-companies.aspx https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/about-the-city/history/Pages... I'm pretty sure the shooting is just clays, and not live birds.

jashmatthews 9y ago

> "Senior" implies "Highly Experienced" meaning "lots of years of experience". Not necessarily. Medicine has "Senior Resident" or similar in some countries as the last step before becoming an independent physician. Law and finance have senior associate before junior partner.

pc86 9y ago
Well we're talking about developers, not physicians or attorneys. We don't have multiple steps like resident, physician, associate, partner, etc.
- bovermyer 9y ago
  Maybe we should.
- jashmatthews 9y ago
  We should! Lots of bigger places have senior engineer, then staff engineer etc.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago

Interesting ideas. Maybe this would also change the hiring practices of Software Engineers. You wouldn't have to white board fizzbuzz if you were a "Master" S.E.