8 ms·
It seems to me the whole problem amounts to companies deciding to redefine the word "entry", then acting all disappointed when no one else uses that definition.
by jmadsen 9y ago
It seems to me the whole problem amounts to companies deciding to redefine the word "entry", then acting all disappointed when no one else uses that definition.
"Entry" means "to enter the workforce". It means you have pre-work experience such as a specific degree, speak a certain language, etc.
If you advertise an "entry level web development" job and I just boot camped for that, I am qualified and will apply.
If you want "Junior Developer", say so.
(Comment by someone that this is a gimmick to reduce salary sounds pretty right on.)
- Aloha 9y agoEntry Level ought to be 'willing to train', Junior, some experience, Senior, 8+ years of experience. Sadly title inflation is also a thing.
- epicureanideal 9y agoI think part of the problem is the titles themselves... "Senior" implies "Highly Experienced" meaning "lots of years of experience". Whereas it's completely possible for a person with 3-4 years of experience to be a "Very Good Engineer" within their specific domain and be as valuable, respected, listened-to, etc. as a "Senior Engineer". It doesn't happen often, but it happens. If we had titles more like "Apprentice", "Journeyman", and "Master" Software Engineer, then we wouldn't have this issue. Someone could be a Journeyman after 2 years or 4 depending on how rapidly they progressed through their "apprenticeship" phase, and to "Master" as soon as they had completed sufficiently complex work to have completed a "masterpiece" equivalent.
- bweitzman 9y agoThose titles are gendered, unfortunately. If we want such a system, we should adopt new titles that are more inclusive.
- grzm 9y agoAFAICS, the only one that's explicitly gendered is "journeyman". We've had a pretty good track record swapping out "person" in such situations when it's an issue. One might take issue with "master", and some senses of "master" are gendered, but some are not, such as senses 1c (particularly applicable here) and 1d: > "c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices (see 1apprentice 1b)" > "d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate (see 1consummate 1) skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master
- bweitzman 9y agoThe word caries with it a history of a workforce dominated by men. If there's going to be a new made up system for standardizing and measuring the proficiency of software developers, then we may as well make up new words too that don't have this baggage.
- grzm 9y agoI agree that language is important for effective communication. I also am cognizant of how language changes over time, in meaning, connotation, usage, morphology. One can find problematic usage in a lot of places if one chooses to look. I don't believe that's what you're doing here, and don't mean to put forth some reductio ad absurdum argument. I'm interested to learn what heuristic you use to decide what language is acceptable and what needs to be changed. Would you mind sharing?
- jdmichal 9y ago> If there's going to be a new made up system for standardizing and measuring the proficiency of software developers, then we may as well make up new words too that don't have this baggage. This proposal is explicitly not making up a new system, but rather adopting an existing one.
- a_t48 9y agoDo you have better suggestions?
- bad_user 9y agoThere's nothing wrong with "Senior". Lots of years of experience translate to having a proven track record of delivered value, along with management skills and experience of failure, things that can't be substituted by talent or knowledge acquired from reading about the works of others. > a person with 3-4 years of experience to be a "Very Good Engineer" Not the same thing — this is actually the same problem as with hiring practices that people love to hate. Good college degrees, open source contributions, algorithmic exercises during the interview, etc... are all designed to prove your worth. People don't like you for what you are, because you have to show them what you're capable of first. And with 3-4 years of experience, you can slap that "Master" label on your job title, but without being able to show something for it, people will just laugh at you. Also this trend of disrespecting the elderly is nothing new. Ageism is a thing and your opinion is actually in line with what the entire world is already thinking. Younger means cheaper, more prone to abuse, to working long hours and for many tasks just as capable as a more expensive senior. Of course, this is beneficial to young people, but the tragedy is that it doesn't last. You'll be playing a whole different tune in 5 years max, either because you'll end up competing with people that are 5 to 10 years younger and cheaper, or because the bubble will finally burst due to automation, leaving this sea of STEM graduates out of a job, just like steel workers in the nineties. We are automating ourselves as part of our job description, so it should be no surprise when it happens.
- Chyzwar 9y agoLots of years of experience prove nothing. If someone was working for 10 years in Java backend apps, using outdated tech and in an environment that delivered value is secondary to risk, he/she is not senior. 3 years is minimum for getting close to being competent. I would argue that before that you will deliver very little.
- AstralStorm 9y agoThey are a senior engineer... in their specific scope. These levels are not exactly transferable necessarily. You should be able to trust that an experienced developer like this would be able to adapt to newer methods and API.
- arkh 9y agoI'm starting to think that the French Compagnons should add software developers to their list of professions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France if you don't know what it is.
- pjc50 9y agoEnglish equivalent: https://www.wcit.org.uk/members/anon/new.html?destination=%2Findex.html https://www.wcit.org.uk/members/anon/new.html?destination=%2... "The Worshipful Company of Information Technologists". Slightly weird mapping of the traditional Establishment to our industry. Their home page includes items such as "Capercaillie Shoot" (not clear if this involves real grouse as it's in Essex), and "Report on the Funeral of Brigadier Tim Hackworth OBE PhD"
- clappski 8y agoThey have their weird titles because they're a livery company, similar to the Worshipful Company of Marketors (marketors.org/). Perhaps one the day WCIT will get a Royal Charter as well. You can read more about livery companies and their relationship to the City here: https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/about-the-city/history/Pages/livery-companies.aspx https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/about-the-city/history/Pages... I'm pretty sure the shooting is just clays, and not live birds.
- jashmatthews 9y ago> "Senior" implies "Highly Experienced" meaning "lots of years of experience". Not necessarily. Medicine has "Senior Resident" or similar in some countries as the last step before becoming an independent physician. Law and finance have senior associate before junior partner.
- pc86 9y agoWell we're talking about developers, not physicians or attorneys. We don't have multiple steps like resident, physician, associate, partner, etc.
- bovermyer 9y agoMaybe we should.
- jashmatthews 9y agoWe should! Lots of bigger places have senior engineer, then staff engineer etc.
- JustSomeNobody 9y agoInteresting ideas. Maybe this would also change the hiring practices of Software Engineers. You wouldn't have to white board fizzbuzz if you were a "Master" S.E.
- bfung 9y agoWas going to non-helpfully comment that as the title says: 61% of "Entry-Level" Jobs require 3+ years of Experience And <insert stat> of "Senior Software Engineer" jobs require only 3 years of Experience. In the Bay Area culture, 3 years is enough time to jump jobs once: year 1 = figure out how to navigate tech corp year 2 = figure out that it's a sh!t show. year 3 = jump and find greener pastures. repeat year 1.
- closeparen 9y agoIt isn’t the worst thing to have a progression you can step up through every couple of years. The problem is that there needs to be many more degrees of “Eng II” before invoking the word Senior. If Senior came after Eng 5 or something it might not be so bad.
- watwut 9y agoI have seen senior engineers with 1.5 years of experience and totally confident (in startup). And my lifelong experience is that such pepole have pretty good careers, better then humble more self aware people.
- sb8244 9y agoHow did they get to be seniors in their companies? They didn't give the title to themselves, so someone must value their skills. Is having the title mutually exclusive to being humble or self aware?
- watwut 9y agoIt is startup with little experience, so if you act confident and never go against leadership they will think that you know everything. There were also people with 0 experience and 1.5 is significantly more then that. I am confident in claiming that title was dependent more on confidence then skills. You got it basically for never admitting you don't know something.
- dorgo 9y agoSome years ago they introduced job titles at the place where I work. My boss asked me: which job title do you want? I said: senior developer. Her said: ok. Master of the universe would have passed too.
- icebraining 9y agoWhat about Software Wizard? https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Software_Wizard.txt&sortOrder=Sort%2 https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor....
- mads_ravn 9y agoSame thing happenend to me. I went for "Grand Poobah of Software Engineering". The boss said ok, but I think the printed business cards ended up with senior developer. As an aside, a friend got listed with the title cosmocrator (ruler of the universe, when translated directly from greek) in the phonebook. All it took was for him to request it when they asked for a title, and, when asked what it was, reply that it was a form of kinesiology. All in all, you probably should not but to much stock into titles. Even less so, if they are not protected.
- tuananh 9y agoand here in my country, 2-3 years of exp get you senior title, no matter how good (or mediocre) you are. It's just sad.
- june_bug 9y agoJunior Developer is an entry level job title. As a qualifier, it is a demotion from “Developer” alone. A Junior Developer is less than all the other ordinary, plain old general Developer roles. It’s basically a paid intern role. The only people who would ever accept such a title are kids who don’t mind being marked, appropos of nothing, before first impressions are made, as a lesser subordinate, untrusted with serious decisions. When a recruiter, hiring manager or HR contact offers a Junior role, it means you get paid less. In a world where business cards and email signatures serve as pretext for introductions, you see a title with Junior in it, and it reeks of green college grads.
- raducu 9y ago"Entry level" means entry level pay, not experience :)