5 ms·

And this is why you lie on your entry level resumes kids.

crazcarl 9y ago
You absolutely shouldn't lie. But you also shouldn't let your lack of experience stop you from applying to entry level jobs.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  If you don't lie you may be out competed by those who do.
  - ikeyany 9y ago
    Then the focus should be on making it harder for liars to win.
    - treis 9y ago
      How does one searching for an entry level job do this?
      - ikeyany 9y ago
        For starters, gravitate towards fields that prioritize substance over style.
        Density 9y ago
        Wouldn't that be a nice universe to live in...
  - usrusr 9y ago
    On the other hand, not checking 100% of the boxes would boost the credibility of your other claims a lot. Clever HR departments might even deliberately add some extremely implausible optional requirements to flag those who are most comfortable lying in their CV.
- OrwellianChild 9y ago
  This. The take-away is that job descriptions are a poor indicator of the skills required by the company. This is why networking and referrals are so valuable, since they let you understand what the work _actually_ is. Do not treat the years of experience as a barrier to entry.
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  You're absolutely right! You should never lie, especially when random company HR wants 10 years of NodeJs and its been around for 2 years. Perhaps lying to get past the know-nothings in HR is acceptable. Probably not a good idea to lie to tech people you would work with.
  - 52-6F-62 9y ago
    > especially when random company HR wants 10 years of NodeJs and its been around for 2 years. My bane! I swear. I've been doing some form of programming since I was a kid, and as a hobby and moonlighting for more like 10 years, and professionally for a notable company for a few years and I still get automatic responses (* rejections) from HR within hours or a couple of days with 99% of the applications I send out with a generic message full of platitudes. And from any size: small startups to multi-national conglomerates. If I hear anything at all.
    - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
      Thankfully, my current place did exactly the opposite. They stated what technologies they used, and had a distinct understanding that you would not know their inhouse app. They also wanted to see your experience. So the first thing they do before an interview is a audition. You're sat down, on prem, (sys ad job) with Windows 2012 server, IIS, MSSQL, and a toy app. You have to make it work. They record the screencap, and review it as a team to see how you perform the job. Frankly, I love how this place works and gets things done. Roadblocks are a thing, like all jobs.. But some of these are from those much higher up. But communication and support of your coworkers is absolutely amazing. But the other thing, I work now in a regulated space. I knew that going in (3 good friends work there as well). Lying on my resume would not be, uhh, good :) There's these nice guys and ladys in suits who specialize in a wee more stringent background checks.
      - 52-6F-62 9y ago
        That's an interesting approach. I also don't mind the idea of a take-home project if it's not, say 6+ hours. The performance anxiety that can set in when someone is peering over your shoulder or going to review your recording later could be a bit of a handicap for some. Still, it's a fresh, and more realistic take. My problem has been getting past the gatekeepers to get to that point—any face-to-face. Though in my current role, I'll say they were happy after speaking to me and discovering I had heard and was familiar enough with their solution to have fiddled around with the platform outside of a professional context. In spite of my amateur knowledge of it, it seemed to be the distinguishing factor in my interview... just not until I actually got past the gatekeepers— in what increasingly seems like a game of chance! :P
- ihsw2 9y ago
  There is already an information asymmetry, what's wrong with using it to your advantage? Employers do, through withholding salary data during the entirety of your employment -- from initial negotiations, to annual raises/compensation re-evaluation, to performance and retention bonuses, to etc. Beyond disqualifying yourself, there's not much in terms of risk and the reward (getting your career off the ground) is quite good, especially when faced with writing >200 job applications.
outworlder 9y ago
Well, I once interviewed a guy who claimed to have done iOS development since 2007 – basically since the iPhone launch. There was no iOS SDK that year, it only came later. Guy was a bit embarrassed when I pointed that out. This could have been a honest mistake, but then I started looking for more "mistakes" and found a bunch more non-plausible stuff. I then went ahead and hired another guy with literally zero job experience, but with interesting academic pursuits and who contributed to Compiz. Guy turned out to be amazing. Don't lie. If a company won't listen to you because you don't have an arbitrary number of years of experience in your CV (what's this, the aviation industry?), then it is not a company you want to be talking to anyway. EDIT: I should have said "Don't lie during the technical interview"
- matte_black 9y ago
  This isn’t an argument to not lie, it’s an argument to know what you are lying about. I’ve seen plenty of people lie their way into great jobs.
  - outworlder 9y ago
    Me too. And frankly, I could not care less about whatever someone says to HR during the non-technical B.S. interview process that some companies have. "Tell me a time where you did X". Make up whatever story you want, they will not fact check you, as long as you don't overdo it. For technical interviews though, it depends on how deep the interviewer will want to probe. Banking that they won't care or don't know their stuff is not really a winning strategy. People may overlook some of the job requirements (many interviewers won't even look at what's written in the job offer itself!). They will not look the other way if they catch you lying, even if it about something that's of no consequence for the job. You get branded as not trustworthy from the get go.
- psyc 9y ago
  Is this true? My business partner and I started doing iOS app development in august of 2008, and we were distinctly afraid we were late. edit: Ok, the SDK arrived in March '08. I guess we weren't that late.
blahedo 9y ago
You can get all the necessary keywords in without lying; and actually lying on your resume is liable to lose you the job or in some cases to cause you trouble even after you have it. Easy solution: distinguish the stuff that you have "exposure" or "light experience" or whatever (translation: I screwed around with Django for a weekend) from the stuff that you are actually claiming serious experience with ("I've built multiple apps in this technology, successfully submitted a patch to their dev branch, and if pressed could quote various parts of its documentation"). Result: filters and HR people check whatever boxes they need to, and any remotely competent technical person sees what you're actually saying. No lying necessary.

You absolutely shouldn't lie. But you also shouldn't let your lack of experience stop you from applying to entry level jobs.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
If you don't lie you may be out competed by those who do.
- ikeyany 9y ago
  Then the focus should be on making it harder for liars to win.
  - treis 9y ago
    How does one searching for an entry level job do this?
    - ikeyany 9y ago
      For starters, gravitate towards fields that prioritize substance over style.
      - Density 9y ago
        Wouldn't that be a nice universe to live in...
- usrusr 9y ago
  On the other hand, not checking 100% of the boxes would boost the credibility of your other claims a lot. Clever HR departments might even deliberately add some extremely implausible optional requirements to flag those who are most comfortable lying in their CV.
OrwellianChild 9y ago
This. The take-away is that job descriptions are a poor indicator of the skills required by the company. This is why networking and referrals are so valuable, since they let you understand what the work _actually_ is. Do not treat the years of experience as a barrier to entry.
crankylinuxuser 9y ago
You're absolutely right! You should never lie, especially when random company HR wants 10 years of NodeJs and its been around for 2 years. Perhaps lying to get past the know-nothings in HR is acceptable. Probably not a good idea to lie to tech people you would work with.
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  > especially when random company HR wants 10 years of NodeJs and its been around for 2 years. My bane! I swear. I've been doing some form of programming since I was a kid, and as a hobby and moonlighting for more like 10 years, and professionally for a notable company for a few years and I still get automatic responses (* rejections) from HR within hours or a couple of days with 99% of the applications I send out with a generic message full of platitudes. And from any size: small startups to multi-national conglomerates. If I hear anything at all.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    Thankfully, my current place did exactly the opposite. They stated what technologies they used, and had a distinct understanding that you would not know their inhouse app. They also wanted to see your experience. So the first thing they do before an interview is a audition. You're sat down, on prem, (sys ad job) with Windows 2012 server, IIS, MSSQL, and a toy app. You have to make it work. They record the screencap, and review it as a team to see how you perform the job. Frankly, I love how this place works and gets things done. Roadblocks are a thing, like all jobs.. But some of these are from those much higher up. But communication and support of your coworkers is absolutely amazing. But the other thing, I work now in a regulated space. I knew that going in (3 good friends work there as well). Lying on my resume would not be, uhh, good :) There's these nice guys and ladys in suits who specialize in a wee more stringent background checks.
    - 52-6F-62 9y ago
      That's an interesting approach. I also don't mind the idea of a take-home project if it's not, say 6+ hours. The performance anxiety that can set in when someone is peering over your shoulder or going to review your recording later could be a bit of a handicap for some. Still, it's a fresh, and more realistic take. My problem has been getting past the gatekeepers to get to that point—any face-to-face. Though in my current role, I'll say they were happy after speaking to me and discovering I had heard and was familiar enough with their solution to have fiddled around with the platform outside of a professional context. In spite of my amateur knowledge of it, it seemed to be the distinguishing factor in my interview... just not until I actually got past the gatekeepers— in what increasingly seems like a game of chance! :P
ihsw2 9y ago
There is already an information asymmetry, what's wrong with using it to your advantage? Employers do, through withholding salary data during the entirety of your employment -- from initial negotiations, to annual raises/compensation re-evaluation, to performance and retention bonuses, to etc. Beyond disqualifying yourself, there's not much in terms of risk and the reward (getting your career off the ground) is quite good, especially when faced with writing >200 job applications.

outworlder 9y ago

Well, I once interviewed a guy who claimed to have done iOS development since 2007 – basically since the iPhone launch. There was no iOS SDK that year, it only came later. Guy was a bit embarrassed when I pointed that out. This could have been a honest mistake, but then I started looking for more "mistakes" and found a bunch more non-plausible stuff. I then went ahead and hired another guy with literally zero job experience, but with interesting academic pursuits and who contributed to Compiz. Guy turned out to be amazing. Don't lie. If a company won't listen to you because you don't have an arbitrary number of years of experience in your CV (what's this, the aviation industry?), then it is not a company you want to be talking to anyway. EDIT: I should have said "Don't lie during the technical interview"

matte_black 9y ago
This isn’t an argument to not lie, it’s an argument to know what you are lying about. I’ve seen plenty of people lie their way into great jobs.
- outworlder 9y ago
  Me too. And frankly, I could not care less about whatever someone says to HR during the non-technical B.S. interview process that some companies have. "Tell me a time where you did X". Make up whatever story you want, they will not fact check you, as long as you don't overdo it. For technical interviews though, it depends on how deep the interviewer will want to probe. Banking that they won't care or don't know their stuff is not really a winning strategy. People may overlook some of the job requirements (many interviewers won't even look at what's written in the job offer itself!). They will not look the other way if they catch you lying, even if it about something that's of no consequence for the job. You get branded as not trustworthy from the get go.
psyc 9y ago
Is this true? My business partner and I started doing iOS app development in august of 2008, and we were distinctly afraid we were late. edit: Ok, the SDK arrived in March '08. I guess we weren't that late.

blahedo 9y ago

You can get all the necessary keywords in without lying; and actually lying on your resume is liable to lose you the job or in some cases to cause you trouble even after you have it. Easy solution: distinguish the stuff that you have "exposure" or "light experience" or whatever (translation: I screwed around with Django for a weekend) from the stuff that you are actually claiming serious experience with ("I've built multiple apps in this technology, successfully submitted a patch to their dev branch, and if pressed could quote various parts of its documentation"). Result: filters and HR people check whatever boxes they need to, and any remotely competent technical person sees what you're actually saying. No lying necessary.