4 ms·

The fact that people need a source of income to live, and that they have very little influence on the price of their labor without collective bargaining.

apsec112 9y ago
People also need food to live, and they have no influence on the price of food; you can't go into Safeway and get a prime steak for $1.50. Yet there is such an abundance of food at such low prices that half of Westerners are overweight. The labor market must have other issues, besides these, if it's having more problems than the food market.
- 1812Overture 9y ago
  The grocery stores I go to have price tags on everything.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    And job offers typically come without price brackets. Moreover the requirements are often written (or processed into mush) by a person who has no clue. This puts you at a major disadvantage. And then there is the problem that a company can easily outwit and outwait you as they have a big buffer. Only people currently in stable jobs or with plenty of f.u. money can match it. If there is a slump in demand or peak in worker supply you will have even less bargaining power.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
That's not how supply and demand works. I'm on the supply side of the labor supply-and-demand curve. I set the price that I'm willing to sell my time at. Nobody else sets my price, and I don't set anybody else's price. On the demand side, there are a bunch of employers who each have their own price for what they're willing to pay for a certain set of skills. Each sets their own price. Nobody else sets it for them. In particular, nobody on the supply side can possibly set the price the demand side is willing to pay. Now, all of what I just said presumes a functioning supply-and-demand market. It breaks down if there's collusion between employers, or in a single-employer situation. Unions may well be needed in such situations. But in a working labor market, demanding more than market price for labor will result in lower demand for labor.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  It also breaks due to secrecy in salary structure at companies on demand side. A worker on supply side only has very limited resources to figure out how valuable the offers are.
paulddraper 9y ago
Don't forget the fact that companies need employees to survive and they have very little influence on the price of the labor without (illegal) collusion.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  Not true. They have the ultimate influence on the salaries once they have hired enough people. They can just not hire. A person cannot really "not be hired" for prolonged time unless they're already rich. Most cannot tolerate unemployment for even a short time. Even students who don't have many commitments cannot do so for too long. Only for very small companies this is somewhat true.
  - paulddraper 9y ago
    > They have the ultimate influence on the salaries once they have hired enough people. They can just not hire. Likewise, employees have the ultimate influence on salaries once they have enough leverage in the job market. A company hiring is like a person finding a job: they only have to once for a long period of time. A company paying a salary is like a person working a job: they have to do it constantly. --- You can say the cards are stack in the favor of employers, and they sometimes are, but remember 4 out of 5 businesses fail. Four out of five individuals do not go bankrupt.

apsec112 9y ago

People also need food to live, and they have no influence on the price of food; you can't go into Safeway and get a prime steak for $1.50. Yet there is such an abundance of food at such low prices that half of Westerners are overweight. The labor market must have other issues, besides these, if it's having more problems than the food market.

1812Overture 9y ago
The grocery stores I go to have price tags on everything.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  And job offers typically come without price brackets. Moreover the requirements are often written (or processed into mush) by a person who has no clue. This puts you at a major disadvantage. And then there is the problem that a company can easily outwit and outwait you as they have a big buffer. Only people currently in stable jobs or with plenty of f.u. money can match it. If there is a slump in demand or peak in worker supply you will have even less bargaining power.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

That's not how supply and demand works. I'm on the supply side of the labor supply-and-demand curve. I set the price that I'm willing to sell my time at. Nobody else sets my price, and I don't set anybody else's price. On the demand side, there are a bunch of employers who each have their own price for what they're willing to pay for a certain set of skills. Each sets their own price. Nobody else sets it for them. In particular, nobody on the supply side can possibly set the price the demand side is willing to pay. Now, all of what I just said presumes a functioning supply-and-demand market. It breaks down if there's collusion between employers, or in a single-employer situation. Unions may well be needed in such situations. But in a working labor market, demanding more than market price for labor will result in lower demand for labor.

AstralStorm 9y ago
It also breaks due to secrecy in salary structure at companies on demand side. A worker on supply side only has very limited resources to figure out how valuable the offers are.

paulddraper 9y ago

Don't forget the fact that companies need employees to survive and they have very little influence on the price of the labor without (illegal) collusion.

AstralStorm 9y ago
Not true. They have the ultimate influence on the salaries once they have hired enough people. They can just not hire. A person cannot really "not be hired" for prolonged time unless they're already rich. Most cannot tolerate unemployment for even a short time. Even students who don't have many commitments cannot do so for too long. Only for very small companies this is somewhat true.
- paulddraper 9y ago
  > They have the ultimate influence on the salaries once they have hired enough people. They can just not hire. Likewise, employees have the ultimate influence on salaries once they have enough leverage in the job market. A company hiring is like a person finding a job: they only have to once for a long period of time. A company paying a salary is like a person working a job: they have to do it constantly. --- You can say the cards are stack in the favor of employers, and they sometimes are, but remember 4 out of 5 businesses fail. Four out of five individuals do not go bankrupt.