4 ms·

> Cynically, or conspiratorially, I think everyone is making a huge deal about this because it's manipulation that's not happening through the officially-contro

by kartan 9y ago

> Cynically, or conspiratorially, I think everyone is making a huge deal about this because it's manipulation that's not happening through the officially-controlled and sanctioned channels. Cynically, it is cynism to devaluate all democratic values because democracies are not perfect. You say, and I agree, that democracies are not perfect because there are groups of interest that manipulate the results. Your conclusion is that we should stop caring and we should accept any level of manipulation, as it is impossible to reach zero manipulation. With that same logic, we should allow any crime as it is proven that we cannot stop all of them. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/134/Nirvana-Fallacy https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...

dilap 9y ago
No, I just don't think this manipulation is materially different than other forms, so I don't see it as particularly troubling. (Actually, I find it less troubling.) I am somewhat skeptical of democracy, though.
- grzm 9y ago
  > "I am somewhat skeptical of democracy, though." Would you elaborate on this? Alternatives you'd prefer?
  - dilap 9y ago
    I have some ideas for alternatives or tweaks, but nothing I am particularly sure about. My general sense of skepticism comes from a few things: - The sense that America as a whole is somewhat shoddily run - The sense that San Francisco specifically is very shoddily run. - The (very elitist, I'll admit) feeling that I don't think the average person is competent to understand or decide most issues. To be sure, context matters: "who is your population", "what is your political culture" (tradition of bribery? of honesty?) &c are important; some very nice places seem to be working well as democracies. But I would not classify the city or the country I live in among them. Still unsure of & mulling over exactly what I'd do to fix things. (SF in particular is pretty bad: - Extremely rich - But staffed with a working-class that lives in poor conditions & is super overworked; basically, exploited - Filled with people living on the streets in conditions ranging from extremely bad to some of the extreme human misery I've ever witnessed - Decaying infrastructure - Constant low-level crime - Very (very!) dirty.)
    - supreme_sublime 9y ago
      Personally I think one of our biggest problems is universal voting rights. Only people who make a net contribution in taxes should be able to vote. Otherwise it becomes 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
      - dilap 9y ago
        You have to be careful here though that you don't incentivize the creation of a powerless, exploited underclass.
        supreme_sublime 9y ago
        Not really, if they aren't receiving any benefits from the government they are almost certainly paying some form of taxes with sales tax. Though since there isn't a federal sales tax it would probably make sense they wouldn't be able to vote federally. There is a chance of that happening, but it should be a self correcting system. If government assistance is pulled from people, they just opened a new voting block.

by kartan 9y ago

dilap 9y ago

No, I just don't think this manipulation is materially different than other forms, so I don't see it as particularly troubling. (Actually, I find it less troubling.) I am somewhat skeptical of democracy, though.

grzm 9y ago
> "I am somewhat skeptical of democracy, though." Would you elaborate on this? Alternatives you'd prefer?
- dilap 9y ago
  I have some ideas for alternatives or tweaks, but nothing I am particularly sure about. My general sense of skepticism comes from a few things: - The sense that America as a whole is somewhat shoddily run - The sense that San Francisco specifically is very shoddily run. - The (very elitist, I'll admit) feeling that I don't think the average person is competent to understand or decide most issues. To be sure, context matters: "who is your population", "what is your political culture" (tradition of bribery? of honesty?) &c are important; some very nice places seem to be working well as democracies. But I would not classify the city or the country I live in among them. Still unsure of & mulling over exactly what I'd do to fix things. (SF in particular is pretty bad: - Extremely rich - But staffed with a working-class that lives in poor conditions & is super overworked; basically, exploited - Filled with people living on the streets in conditions ranging from extremely bad to some of the extreme human misery I've ever witnessed - Decaying infrastructure - Constant low-level crime - Very (very!) dirty.)
  - supreme_sublime 9y ago
    Personally I think one of our biggest problems is universal voting rights. Only people who make a net contribution in taxes should be able to vote. Otherwise it becomes 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    - dilap 9y ago
      You have to be careful here though that you don't incentivize the creation of a powerless, exploited underclass.
      - supreme_sublime 9y ago
        Not really, if they aren't receiving any benefits from the government they are almost certainly paying some form of taxes with sales tax. Though since there isn't a federal sales tax it would probably make sense they wouldn't be able to vote federally. There is a chance of that happening, but it should be a self correcting system. If government assistance is pulled from people, they just opened a new voting block.