7 ms·

Honestly, this should never be allowed. It’s archaeology-hostile. It pisses me off to no end when I am searching for information on reddit and come across peop

Honestly, this should never be allowed. It’s archaeology-hostile. It pisses me off to no end when I am searching for information on reddit and come across people replying to deleted posts by some paranoid user who wishes comments were more ephemeral like Snapchat. This is what the next dark age of mankind will be like, people from the future looking for historical information and finding nothing but deleted or decayed data. Here’s a tip: if you don’t want something to be up for all time, don’t even bother posting it. Keep it to your self. There are a lot of damning things and incidents that could end people’s careers and reputations that I’ve never posted about because I do not want the permanent liability. I feel like the art of staying anonymous has been lost on people. It’s not that hard.

existencebox 9y ago
I couldn't agree more. What's frustrating is that we seem to be getting the worst of both worlds too; privacy in the face of archeology and public memory, but complete lack thereof in the face of nation states and many companies. (yes yes "gdpr will solve this" that's another long and contentious discussion that I'm putting off for now.) As et-al said in a sister comment, in "ye-olde-internet" pseudonyms and some degree of anonymity was de-facto. When the real-names policies first started coming out, there was real pushback. Nowadays I see much more sentiment towards having some central authorities to protect users, and it worries me as, among other things, a loss of agency and empowerment to protect onesself. (do not read this to say that there are spaces regulation isn't important; but pushing the line too far and normalizing a lack of awareness and ownership over your situation is a real risk if the pendulum swings too far)
rwhitman 9y ago
Isn't the entire history of communication archeology-hostile?
- matte_black 9y ago
  Yes, but the internet is not purely communication, it's also a store of knowledge. You can find a lot of good information from threads and discussions people have had in the past. Also, even records of mundane communication people had throughout thousands of years in the past is of great value to archaeologists in learning about how people lived their lives and how different events affected them. Since we live in a time where we have the privilege of rediscovering the past in greater detail than ever, we should have the introspection to be mindful of what we are leaving for our future as well.
  - switch007 9y ago
    > Yes, but the internet is not purely communication, it's also a store of knowledge. Who owns the data?
  - krapp 9y ago
    >Also, even records of mundane communication people had throughout thousands of years in the past is of great value to archaeologists in learning about how people lived their lives and how different events affected them. Meanwhile, works by Archimedes, Homer and Shakespeare, as well as innumerable other cultural artifacts, have been lost to time. As well as the original tapes of the moon landings. The ancient Sumerians writing their tax records in cuneiform never intended to leave a record for the ages. We still probably wouldn't know how Egyptian hieroglyphics worked if not for one artifact that happened to have it printed alongside known languages - and we still have no clue about Linear A, and many other languages. What gets left behind as an artifact of the ages tends to be determined by random chance, and beyond that, the cultivating desires of the wealthy. In other words, it almost certainly won't be you or I who decide the value or longevity of our work. >Since we live in a time where we have the privilege of rediscovering the past in greater detail than ever, we should have the introspection to be mindful of what we are leaving for our future as well. The web wasn't meant to provide a lasting store of knowledge. It is ephemeral and stateless by design. If you want people to think long term about the collective data archive of humanity, asking everyone to just never delete anything is not going to cut it.
- patmcc 9y ago
  Sure, but if we have the technology to make it archeology-friendly it'd be very nice to future archaeologists. Any current archaeologist would give an arm and a leg for a few good reddit/HN threads from ancient Rome.
corin_ 9y ago
Why not allow people to remove just the connection to their account but not the content itself? We all make mistakes and say things we later regret, sure the content forms part of a bigger picture which should be preserved but shouldn’t we be allowed to tidy up our publicly available historic opinions if they don’t match who we are now? I’m pretty careful in what I post on social media or on websites, but I’ve definitely said things in the past that I wish I hadn’t, both on and offline, and unless I were a person of significant public interest (such as a politician) I don’t think it’s important for those mistakes to be documented for eternity.
- matte_black 9y ago
  No one is forced to create a connection between their real identity to their account. I don't know why people insist on doing it and then later wanting to undo it. In fact, if you don't want your anonymous account tied to you anymore in any way, sell it off to someone else. I bought this account for $500.
  - lhuser123 9y ago
    Ok, I don’t understand. Why would you buy that account?
  - softawre 9y ago
    Why did you buy that account for 500$? And are you saying that the previous owner of the account is the one who didn't want it tied to him anymore, so he sold it to you (and you are therefore providing an anonymizing service to him?).
    - matte_black 9y ago
      Knew the owner in real life. I liked the name and didn’t want to start off with an empty account with no karma. It’s mutual anonymization.
  - ufmace 9y ago
    Trouble is how many connections you might have created accidentally. If you combine all of someone's posts together, many people have revealed enough information in total to figure out their true identity. Especially if they have a unique, google-able username that they have used on several different sites on different subjects, and you combine everything they've said on every site. Of course, there are ways to throw some dirt into those gears, like posting fake details or trading/selling accounts every now and then...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
DoreenMichele 9y ago
Honestly, this should never be allowed. I wouldn't go that far, though I am generally sympathetic to your overarching argument. I wouldn't go that far in part because I'm a woman and women seem to attract stalkers a lot more than men. I was a homemaker for a long time and had a very private life. Trying to figure out how to interact effectively in the public sphere has been a struggle for me. Part of that is me. Part of that is other people. People react differently to a woman than to a man. So, on the one hand, I needed to figure out what I was simply doing wrong. On the other hand, I needed to figure out how to effectively navigate a situation that can, at times, be actively hostile and dangerous, even if I am not doing anything wrong. Those two things confound each other and I don't know of any good sources of instruction. This has helped make me very aware that sometimes people get into real trouble and need extraordinary measures to help extract them from the mess. I think those extraordinary measures should be made available at times. But I also think it should not be the default solution. I generally agree with you that there are other approaches that we need to be pursuing that are more nuanced and that try to balance different concerns. I think gutting the value of a forum so that people can remove all their content at will on a whim can readily go bad places. I am not crazy about it as a policy/law.
- spondyl 9y ago
  Oh, hey! I was gonna say, your writing style seems familiar for some reason but I knew you by your previous handle. Nice to see you're still around
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    Nice to see you're still around Thanks. I went through a lot of changes in a short period of time and basically rebooted my entire internet life for various reasons. Some people have noticed I changed handles here and some haven't. To try to clear up any remaining confusion, I recently noted in my other profile that I am now posting under this handle.
- throwaway4719 9y ago
  > I think gutting the value of a forum so that people can remove all their content at will on a whim can readily go bad places. Thankfully, there's a really easy solution that HN today will not consider/is not taking seriously enough: Just change the goddamn displayed username for each comment to "<deleted>" or whatever. 1) this kind of (seemingly; it's all a black box in reality though) naval-gazing-based decision making is exactly why the GDPR makes sense. We can't run our lives on the whims of a few random people. 2) Does YCombinator tell us all of this stuff when we sign up to HN? No. We have to find it out by ourselves. When we e-mail them to ask them to delete our contributions, since there's no delete button, they just say "sorry, we can't do that". This kind of stuff is what the GDPR is good for.
novia 9y ago
It’s archaeology-hostile. It pisses me off to no end when I am searching for information on reddit and come across people replying to deleted posts by some paranoid user who wishes comments were more ephemeral like Snapchat. This is what the next dark age of mankind will be like, people from the future looking for historical information and finding nothing but deleted or decayed data No. It absolutely should be allowed. Sites like the internet archive exist to preserve internet data.
- mstolpm 9y ago
  If the 'right to be forgotten' is enforceable worldwide, it will be enforceable regarding the internet archive as well.
- matte_black 9y ago
  > No. It absolutely should be allowed. Sites like the internet archive exist to preserve internet data. For now. But one day they'll come for those archives too.
nvarsj 9y ago
I think you’re being unsympathetic and overly dramatic. We’re all human and mistakes are inevitable. Some mistakes could cost a person’s livelihood or safety.
jellevdv 9y ago
[deleted]
- matte_black 9y ago
  Good point.
shostack 9y ago
>"Here’s a tip: if you don’t want something to be up for all time, don’t even bother posting it. Keep it to your self. There are a lot of damning things and incidents that could end people’s careers and reputations that I’ve never posted about because I do not want the permanent liability." Do you feel it is reasonable to ask this of adolescents who might disregard or circumvent measures their parents put in place (if they even have them)? They are not yet aware of what consequences this can have or the magnitude and seriousness of them. They are not mature enough to do so in many cases.

existencebox 9y ago

I couldn't agree more. What's frustrating is that we seem to be getting the worst of both worlds too; privacy in the face of archeology and public memory, but complete lack thereof in the face of nation states and many companies. (yes yes "gdpr will solve this" that's another long and contentious discussion that I'm putting off for now.) As et-al said in a sister comment, in "ye-olde-internet" pseudonyms and some degree of anonymity was de-facto. When the real-names policies first started coming out, there was real pushback. Nowadays I see much more sentiment towards having some central authorities to protect users, and it worries me as, among other things, a loss of agency and empowerment to protect onesself. (do not read this to say that there are spaces regulation isn't important; but pushing the line too far and normalizing a lack of awareness and ownership over your situation is a real risk if the pendulum swings too far)

rwhitman 9y ago

Isn't the entire history of communication archeology-hostile?

matte_black 9y ago
Yes, but the internet is not purely communication, it's also a store of knowledge. You can find a lot of good information from threads and discussions people have had in the past. Also, even records of mundane communication people had throughout thousands of years in the past is of great value to archaeologists in learning about how people lived their lives and how different events affected them. Since we live in a time where we have the privilege of rediscovering the past in greater detail than ever, we should have the introspection to be mindful of what we are leaving for our future as well.
- switch007 9y ago
  > Yes, but the internet is not purely communication, it's also a store of knowledge. Who owns the data?
- krapp 9y ago
  >Also, even records of mundane communication people had throughout thousands of years in the past is of great value to archaeologists in learning about how people lived their lives and how different events affected them. Meanwhile, works by Archimedes, Homer and Shakespeare, as well as innumerable other cultural artifacts, have been lost to time. As well as the original tapes of the moon landings. The ancient Sumerians writing their tax records in cuneiform never intended to leave a record for the ages. We still probably wouldn't know how Egyptian hieroglyphics worked if not for one artifact that happened to have it printed alongside known languages - and we still have no clue about Linear A, and many other languages. What gets left behind as an artifact of the ages tends to be determined by random chance, and beyond that, the cultivating desires of the wealthy. In other words, it almost certainly won't be you or I who decide the value or longevity of our work. >Since we live in a time where we have the privilege of rediscovering the past in greater detail than ever, we should have the introspection to be mindful of what we are leaving for our future as well. The web wasn't meant to provide a lasting store of knowledge. It is ephemeral and stateless by design. If you want people to think long term about the collective data archive of humanity, asking everyone to just never delete anything is not going to cut it.
patmcc 9y ago
Sure, but if we have the technology to make it archeology-friendly it'd be very nice to future archaeologists. Any current archaeologist would give an arm and a leg for a few good reddit/HN threads from ancient Rome.

corin_ 9y ago

Why not allow people to remove just the connection to their account but not the content itself? We all make mistakes and say things we later regret, sure the content forms part of a bigger picture which should be preserved but shouldn’t we be allowed to tidy up our publicly available historic opinions if they don’t match who we are now? I’m pretty careful in what I post on social media or on websites, but I’ve definitely said things in the past that I wish I hadn’t, both on and offline, and unless I were a person of significant public interest (such as a politician) I don’t think it’s important for those mistakes to be documented for eternity.

matte_black 9y ago
No one is forced to create a connection between their real identity to their account. I don't know why people insist on doing it and then later wanting to undo it. In fact, if you don't want your anonymous account tied to you anymore in any way, sell it off to someone else. I bought this account for $500.
- lhuser123 9y ago
  Ok, I don’t understand. Why would you buy that account?
- softawre 9y ago
  Why did you buy that account for 500$? And are you saying that the previous owner of the account is the one who didn't want it tied to him anymore, so he sold it to you (and you are therefore providing an anonymizing service to him?).
  - matte_black 9y ago
    Knew the owner in real life. I liked the name and didn’t want to start off with an empty account with no karma. It’s mutual anonymization.
- ufmace 9y ago
  Trouble is how many connections you might have created accidentally. If you combine all of someone's posts together, many people have revealed enough information in total to figure out their true identity. Especially if they have a unique, google-able username that they have used on several different sites on different subjects, and you combine everything they've said on every site. Of course, there are ways to throw some dirt into those gears, like posting fake details or trading/selling accounts every now and then...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

DoreenMichele 9y ago

Honestly, this should never be allowed. I wouldn't go that far, though I am generally sympathetic to your overarching argument. I wouldn't go that far in part because I'm a woman and women seem to attract stalkers a lot more than men. I was a homemaker for a long time and had a very private life. Trying to figure out how to interact effectively in the public sphere has been a struggle for me. Part of that is me. Part of that is other people. People react differently to a woman than to a man. So, on the one hand, I needed to figure out what I was simply doing wrong. On the other hand, I needed to figure out how to effectively navigate a situation that can, at times, be actively hostile and dangerous, even if I am not doing anything wrong. Those two things confound each other and I don't know of any good sources of instruction. This has helped make me very aware that sometimes people get into real trouble and need extraordinary measures to help extract them from the mess. I think those extraordinary measures should be made available at times. But I also think it should not be the default solution. I generally agree with you that there are other approaches that we need to be pursuing that are more nuanced and that try to balance different concerns. I think gutting the value of a forum so that people can remove all their content at will on a whim can readily go bad places. I am not crazy about it as a policy/law.

spondyl 9y ago
Oh, hey! I was gonna say, your writing style seems familiar for some reason but I knew you by your previous handle. Nice to see you're still around
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  Nice to see you're still around Thanks. I went through a lot of changes in a short period of time and basically rebooted my entire internet life for various reasons. Some people have noticed I changed handles here and some haven't. To try to clear up any remaining confusion, I recently noted in my other profile that I am now posting under this handle.
throwaway4719 9y ago
> I think gutting the value of a forum so that people can remove all their content at will on a whim can readily go bad places. Thankfully, there's a really easy solution that HN today will not consider/is not taking seriously enough: Just change the goddamn displayed username for each comment to "<deleted>" or whatever. 1) this kind of (seemingly; it's all a black box in reality though) naval-gazing-based decision making is exactly why the GDPR makes sense. We can't run our lives on the whims of a few random people. 2) Does YCombinator tell us all of this stuff when we sign up to HN? No. We have to find it out by ourselves. When we e-mail them to ask them to delete our contributions, since there's no delete button, they just say "sorry, we can't do that". This kind of stuff is what the GDPR is good for.

novia 9y ago

It’s archaeology-hostile. It pisses me off to no end when I am searching for information on reddit and come across people replying to deleted posts by some paranoid user who wishes comments were more ephemeral like Snapchat. This is what the next dark age of mankind will be like, people from the future looking for historical information and finding nothing but deleted or decayed data No. It absolutely should be allowed. Sites like the internet archive exist to preserve internet data.

mstolpm 9y ago
If the 'right to be forgotten' is enforceable worldwide, it will be enforceable regarding the internet archive as well.
matte_black 9y ago
> No. It absolutely should be allowed. Sites like the internet archive exist to preserve internet data. For now. But one day they'll come for those archives too.

nvarsj 9y ago

I think you’re being unsympathetic and overly dramatic. We’re all human and mistakes are inevitable. Some mistakes could cost a person’s livelihood or safety.

jellevdv 9y ago

[deleted]

matte_black 9y ago
Good point.

shostack 9y ago

>"Here’s a tip: if you don’t want something to be up for all time, don’t even bother posting it. Keep it to your self. There are a lot of damning things and incidents that could end people’s careers and reputations that I’ve never posted about because I do not want the permanent liability." Do you feel it is reasonable to ask this of adolescents who might disregard or circumvent measures their parents put in place (if they even have them)? They are not yet aware of what consequences this can have or the magnitude and seriousness of them. They are not mature enough to do so in many cases.