5 ms·

Not arguing that any individual should stay or go since that's obviously a complex decision, but at some level if you believe the municipal and/or state governm

Not arguing that any individual should stay or go since that's obviously a complex decision, but at some level if you believe the municipal and/or state government are broken, yet you are in the middle class and you decide to stay, are you not implicitly funding the brokenness with your continued tax dollars? A huge part of why I decided to leave California was because I lost faith in the municipal and state government and didn't feel like funding them anymore. As a high-earning non-citizen, I "vote" with my feet and my taxes. I guess the point is that you can still pretend it doesn't have to do with you until it's really staring you in the face... and also by my same argument all Americans are also funding US neocolonialism and war etc. by contributing our productivity to the nation. At any rate, I want to emphasize again I'm not saying anyone choosing to stay in Chicago is somehow making an ethically questionable decision, just wanted to bring up this line of thinking for consideration.

nwsm 9y ago
>if you believe the municipal and/or state government are broken, yet you are in the middle class and you decide to stay If everyone that disagrees with a government leaves, it almost ensures that government will stay the same. The only voters left are the ones who don't have a problem with the current administration.
- kolbe 9y ago
  That sounds pretty nice, actually. Everyone gets what they want.
  - nkrisc 9y ago
    Not those who can't afford to leave.
    - sol_remmy 9y ago
      If poor South American families can afford to sneak into the U.S., than 99.9% of Americans can afford to move to a neighboring state. Or, why don't you give me a counterexample of someone who "can't afford to leave". A news story would be acceptable.
      - nkrisc 9y ago
        Are you suggesting the poor citizens of our country ought to be refugees within their own country in order to escape violence? That's a very bleak view of our country, but one that might actually be accurate. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-african-americans-population-cook-county-met-20160623-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-african... Moving costs money. Are you suggesting they simply leave everything behind and walk to a new city? While we're talking about sources, how about a source for your claim that 99.9% of Americans can afford to move to a neighboring state.
        sol_remmy 9y ago
        Why do you consider people from Chicago moving to the South "refugees"? They are moving for better weather, lower taxes, and more jobs. Those are very normal reasons, not "refugee" reasons. Moving to the South is not a lower-class Chicago specific thing, in fact wealthy Jews are moving from New York to Florida. Are they refugees too?
        nkrisc 9y ago
        I don't consider them refugees. You were the one setting the bar at what South American refugees can achieve. Which taken at face value would imply you considered anyone who could not afford to move worse off than a South American refugee. However I consider your claim that 99.9% of Americans can afford to move to a neighboring state highly suspect. I am awaiting a source for that, even a news article.
- sol_remmy 9y ago
  > If everyone that disagrees with a government leaves, it almost ensures that government will stay the same. The only voters left are the ones who don't have a problem with the current administration. Your flat out wrong. If enough taxpayers leave, then government will not have the money to continue spending and stay the same The Soviet Union essentially fell apart because it ran out of money. If it had unlimited taxpayer funds, it would still be around
concrete-faucet 9y ago
I stay in Chicago because I have a very high quality of life here. Higher than I could get in many other places. Every single person that I work with that complains about taxes and money lives in the suburbs. It's no wonder, of course. Property taxes in many Chicago suburbs are double or even triple than those inside the actual city of Chicago. Many of these people once lived in Chicago, but had kids and then left for a house with a yard in some suburb with good schools and high taxes. "It's cheaper than private school" is how they justify it. They buy a second car and drive it to the train station, paying a monthly parking fee in addition to their monthly train ticket. I ride a bicycle to and from work, except when it is too wet or slippery to be safe. I take the bus when that happens. I get home from work and am spending time with my family before the commuter train leaves the station with my suburban colleagues on board. Within a 20 minute walk, we have 5 different parks to choose from. We have some of the best museums and cultural attractions in the world available to us. These places offer free workshops and learning events for children and are required by law to offer a minimum number of days per year of free admission for local residents. I live in a high-rise building filled with a wide variety of people of all different skin tones. Immigrants from Europe, Asia, Latin America and even Africa. Same sex couples. Interracial couples. Muslims, Catholics and Evangelicals. This has been what my children know as normal and have for their entire lives. Perhaps you may want to consider that leaving a place like Chicago is the ethically questionable decision, especially if you are concerned about the thought processes, viewpoints, and experiences that are required to make neocolonialism and war seem like good ideas.
- sol_remmy 9y ago
  The simple fact is that Chicago does not have enough bedrooms to house all the people working in the city. SOMEONE has to live in the suburbs
  - tptacek 9y ago
    This does not at all ring true. I mean, yes, you could not take all of Chicagoland tomorrow and cram it into the city limits. But that's in part because a fraction --- a significant fraction, and probably the majority --- of suburban residents chose to live in the suburbs because they did not want to live in the city. I live in Oak Park, just across Austin, because when we moved here we were concerned about the schools in the neighborhood we wanted (Lincoln Square). We had no trouble finding houses to look at, though! (I sort of regret the decision we made, though I like where we live now.) In fact, even in the most desirable neighborhoods in the city, it's straightforward to find housing in Chicago. People do not move to the suburbs because there's no room in Chicago. There are cities that have that problem. And Chicago has a lot of problems! But it does not have that problem.

nwsm 9y ago

>if you believe the municipal and/or state government are broken, yet you are in the middle class and you decide to stay If everyone that disagrees with a government leaves, it almost ensures that government will stay the same. The only voters left are the ones who don't have a problem with the current administration.

kolbe 9y ago
That sounds pretty nice, actually. Everyone gets what they want.
- nkrisc 9y ago
  Not those who can't afford to leave.
  - sol_remmy 9y ago
    If poor South American families can afford to sneak into the U.S., than 99.9% of Americans can afford to move to a neighboring state. Or, why don't you give me a counterexample of someone who "can't afford to leave". A news story would be acceptable.
    - nkrisc 9y ago
      Are you suggesting the poor citizens of our country ought to be refugees within their own country in order to escape violence? That's a very bleak view of our country, but one that might actually be accurate. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-african-americans-population-cook-county-met-20160623-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-african... Moving costs money. Are you suggesting they simply leave everything behind and walk to a new city? While we're talking about sources, how about a source for your claim that 99.9% of Americans can afford to move to a neighboring state.
      - sol_remmy 9y ago
        Why do you consider people from Chicago moving to the South "refugees"? They are moving for better weather, lower taxes, and more jobs. Those are very normal reasons, not "refugee" reasons. Moving to the South is not a lower-class Chicago specific thing, in fact wealthy Jews are moving from New York to Florida. Are they refugees too?
        nkrisc 9y ago
        I don't consider them refugees. You were the one setting the bar at what South American refugees can achieve. Which taken at face value would imply you considered anyone who could not afford to move worse off than a South American refugee. However I consider your claim that 99.9% of Americans can afford to move to a neighboring state highly suspect. I am awaiting a source for that, even a news article.
sol_remmy 9y ago
> If everyone that disagrees with a government leaves, it almost ensures that government will stay the same. The only voters left are the ones who don't have a problem with the current administration. Your flat out wrong. If enough taxpayers leave, then government will not have the money to continue spending and stay the same The Soviet Union essentially fell apart because it ran out of money. If it had unlimited taxpayer funds, it would still be around

concrete-faucet 9y ago

I stay in Chicago because I have a very high quality of life here. Higher than I could get in many other places. Every single person that I work with that complains about taxes and money lives in the suburbs. It's no wonder, of course. Property taxes in many Chicago suburbs are double or even triple than those inside the actual city of Chicago. Many of these people once lived in Chicago, but had kids and then left for a house with a yard in some suburb with good schools and high taxes. "It's cheaper than private school" is how they justify it. They buy a second car and drive it to the train station, paying a monthly parking fee in addition to their monthly train ticket. I ride a bicycle to and from work, except when it is too wet or slippery to be safe. I take the bus when that happens. I get home from work and am spending time with my family before the commuter train leaves the station with my suburban colleagues on board. Within a 20 minute walk, we have 5 different parks to choose from. We have some of the best museums and cultural attractions in the world available to us. These places offer free workshops and learning events for children and are required by law to offer a minimum number of days per year of free admission for local residents. I live in a high-rise building filled with a wide variety of people of all different skin tones. Immigrants from Europe, Asia, Latin America and even Africa. Same sex couples. Interracial couples. Muslims, Catholics and Evangelicals. This has been what my children know as normal and have for their entire lives. Perhaps you may want to consider that leaving a place like Chicago is the ethically questionable decision, especially if you are concerned about the thought processes, viewpoints, and experiences that are required to make neocolonialism and war seem like good ideas.

sol_remmy 9y ago
The simple fact is that Chicago does not have enough bedrooms to house all the people working in the city. SOMEONE has to live in the suburbs
- tptacek 9y ago
  This does not at all ring true. I mean, yes, you could not take all of Chicagoland tomorrow and cram it into the city limits. But that's in part because a fraction --- a significant fraction, and probably the majority --- of suburban residents chose to live in the suburbs because they did not want to live in the city. I live in Oak Park, just across Austin, because when we moved here we were concerned about the schools in the neighborhood we wanted (Lincoln Square). We had no trouble finding houses to look at, though! (I sort of regret the decision we made, though I like where we live now.) In fact, even in the most desirable neighborhoods in the city, it's straightforward to find housing in Chicago. People do not move to the suburbs because there's no room in Chicago. There are cities that have that problem. And Chicago has a lot of problems! But it does not have that problem.