5 ms·

An inattentive driver killing a pedestrian isn't typically treated as criminal, as far as I know. As a pedestrian and a driver, I have mixed feelings about this

by xapata 9y ago

An inattentive driver killing a pedestrian isn't typically treated as criminal, as far as I know. As a pedestrian and a driver, I have mixed feelings about this.

rtpg 9y ago
What about Toyotas faulty acceleration? My... My understanding was that you can totally have this be treated as criminal but that most families don't want to press charges? Because, well, all of it sucks.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  What faulty acceleration? You mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle... ? > The most common problem was drivers hitting the accelerator pedal when they thought they were hitting the brake, which the NHTSA called "pedal misapplication.” Of the 58 cases reported, 18 were dismissed out of hand. Of the remaining 40, 39 of them were found to have no cause; the remainder being an instance of “pedal entrapment.”
  - romwell 9y ago
    No, this faulty unintended acceleration: [1][2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration#Sudden_Acceleration_in_Toyota_Vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration... [2]http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintended-acceleration-and-big-bowl-%E2%80%9Cspaghetti%E2%80%9D-code?utm_content=bufferf2141&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende...
    - thaumasiotes 9y ago
      So... the NHTSA started an investigation in 2010, and Toyota 'provided to the American public, NHTSA and the United States Congress an inaccurate timeline of events that made it appear as if TOYOTA had learned of the sticky pedal in the United States in “October 2009,”', when "In fact, TOYOTA had begun its investigation of sticky pedal in the United States no later than August 2009, had already reproduced the problem in a U.S. pedal by no later than September 2009, and had taken active steps in the months following that testing to hide the problem from NHTSA and the public." But the NHTSA's 10-month investigation beginning in 2010 when Toyota had already informed them of the sticky pedals came to the conclusion that zero of the reported cases of unintended acceleration involved sticky pedals. That's a case for lying to the government, and we see a judgment against Toyota for lying to the government. How is it a case for unintended acceleration?
      - romwell 9y ago
        Read the second line as well to make conclusions.
- darpa_escapee 9y ago
  > What about Toyotas faulty acceleration? This is a great case to read up on. The testimony from experts in this case was top notch. I believe the criminal charges in the case were related to the degree of deception Toyota engaged in with regards to unintended acceleration in their vehicles. edit: Someone did a case study: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_slides.pdf https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_...
- sgc 9y ago
  Families don't press criminal charges, the DA does. But if someone doesn't want to testify, a case can fall apart.
- danso 9y ago
  Toyota paid a huge fine and other penalties, but looks like the criminal charge has been dismissed: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-toyota/u-s-judge-dismisses-criminal-charge-in-toyota-sudden-acceleration-case-idUSKBN1CA2R2 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-toyota/u-s-judge-dism...
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  If you charge the engineers criminally, the result is that they won't cooperate with investigations, and will do their best to cover things up. With "no fault" investigations, the engineers work with the investigators to identify and fix the problems. The result is a lot better than the adversarial system.
  - Hydraulix989 9y ago
    Has there ever been any back-stabbing after the engineers "cooperate" and volunteer potentially self-incriminating information?
  - empath75 9y ago
    We aren’t talking about a micro service going down, we’re talking about someone dying. If that driver hadn’t been in a self driving car, they’d clearly be going to jail for looking at their phone while driving.
    - skookumchuck 9y ago
      That's right, we're talking about someone dying. Is it better to have the problem fixed, or better to get revenge? In aviation, for example, some mechanics in Chicago were putting jet engines on using the wrong procedure. This resulted in a crack in the engine mount, the engine fell off during takeoff, resulting in a fiery crash where everyone died. Everyone cooperated with the investigation. The mechanics were not criminally charged. The procedures were changed so it wouldn't happen again. Under your proposal, the shop would have had every incentive to alter records, deny, obfuscate, and in general impede finding the truth as much as possible. Do you think that would have been better? I know of no cases where mechanics, engineers, air traffic controllers, regulators or pilots were criminally charged in a fatal accident. The result is we have incredibly safe air travel. I don't know about you, but I'm happy about that result.
atomical 9y ago
A software developer fucked up. It could have been much worse. It's going to make our industry look worse if we aren't held accountable.
- pentagonpapers 9y ago
  Nah, I'd rather not be held accountable for endless scope creep and 80 hour work weeks delivering a product I repeatedly called a pile of bugs
  - m4x 9y ago
    Engineers who are held responsible for their work and can go to jail when they get it wrong don't accept work conditions like you describe. Software engineering might be a better profession to work in if it was regulated the same way other engineering fields are.
  - lostlogin 9y ago
    Makes you wonder if a governing body will ever come about - eg medical councils/boards, engineers associations etc. Presumably it’s these type of problems that they came into existence for. It’s a double edged sword, but often works in the interest of the profession where I am. The biggest difficulty I’d see is that defining a software developer is not prticularly easy.
Mizza 9y ago
A vehicle involved death is always treated as a potential criminal case.
- xapata 9y ago
  Sure, the police always check for intoxication, etc.
threeseed 9y ago
Not sure about the US but in other countries it often is. In Australia for example if you are using your phone and kill someone you absolutely will be seeing jail time.
paulcole 9y ago
> An inattentive driver killing a pedestrian isn't typically treated as criminal, as far as I know They certainly should be treated like a criminal. They used a deadly weapon to kill someone because they didn’t respect their responsibility.
bunderbunder 9y ago
It's generally considered a form of negligent homicide, which is a crime in the USA.
- xapata 9y ago
  No, "ordinary" negligence justifies a charge of vehicular manslaughter, which has lesser penalties than plain manslaughter. Even then, it seems like many states require "gross" negligence, like speeding or intoxication to charge with a crime. Someone who simply "didn't see the pedestrian" but was otherwise following the law will likely not be charged with a crime. They'll get sued, of course.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> An inattentive driver killing a pedestrian isn't typically treated as criminal, as far as I know. It's usually, though exact standards vary, vehicular homicide if there is criminal negligence, which can include inattention while driving especially if it results in a citable (on its own, before considering the fatality) violation of a traffic mandate that causes then fatality.

by xapata 9y ago

An inattentive driver killing a pedestrian isn't typically treated as criminal, as far as I know. As a pedestrian and a driver, I have mixed feelings about this.

rtpg 9y ago

What about Toyotas faulty acceleration? My... My understanding was that you can totally have this be treated as criminal but that most families don't want to press charges? Because, well, all of it sucks.

thaumasiotes 9y ago
What faulty acceleration? You mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle... ? > The most common problem was drivers hitting the accelerator pedal when they thought they were hitting the brake, which the NHTSA called "pedal misapplication.” Of the 58 cases reported, 18 were dismissed out of hand. Of the remaining 40, 39 of them were found to have no cause; the remainder being an instance of “pedal entrapment.”
- romwell 9y ago
  No, this faulty unintended acceleration: [1][2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration#Sudden_Acceleration_in_Toyota_Vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration... [2]http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintended-acceleration-and-big-bowl-%E2%80%9Cspaghetti%E2%80%9D-code?utm_content=bufferf2141&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende...
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    So... the NHTSA started an investigation in 2010, and Toyota 'provided to the American public, NHTSA and the United States Congress an inaccurate timeline of events that made it appear as if TOYOTA had learned of the sticky pedal in the United States in “October 2009,”', when "In fact, TOYOTA had begun its investigation of sticky pedal in the United States no later than August 2009, had already reproduced the problem in a U.S. pedal by no later than September 2009, and had taken active steps in the months following that testing to hide the problem from NHTSA and the public." But the NHTSA's 10-month investigation beginning in 2010 when Toyota had already informed them of the sticky pedals came to the conclusion that zero of the reported cases of unintended acceleration involved sticky pedals. That's a case for lying to the government, and we see a judgment against Toyota for lying to the government. How is it a case for unintended acceleration?
    - romwell 9y ago
      Read the second line as well to make conclusions.
darpa_escapee 9y ago
> What about Toyotas faulty acceleration? This is a great case to read up on. The testimony from experts in this case was top notch. I believe the criminal charges in the case were related to the degree of deception Toyota engaged in with regards to unintended acceleration in their vehicles. edit: Someone did a case study: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_slides.pdf https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_...
sgc 9y ago
Families don't press criminal charges, the DA does. But if someone doesn't want to testify, a case can fall apart.
danso 9y ago
Toyota paid a huge fine and other penalties, but looks like the criminal charge has been dismissed: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-toyota/u-s-judge-dismisses-criminal-charge-in-toyota-sudden-acceleration-case-idUSKBN1CA2R2 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-toyota/u-s-judge-dism...
skookumchuck 9y ago
If you charge the engineers criminally, the result is that they won't cooperate with investigations, and will do their best to cover things up. With "no fault" investigations, the engineers work with the investigators to identify and fix the problems. The result is a lot better than the adversarial system.
- Hydraulix989 9y ago
  Has there ever been any back-stabbing after the engineers "cooperate" and volunteer potentially self-incriminating information?
- empath75 9y ago
  We aren’t talking about a micro service going down, we’re talking about someone dying. If that driver hadn’t been in a self driving car, they’d clearly be going to jail for looking at their phone while driving.
  - skookumchuck 9y ago
    That's right, we're talking about someone dying. Is it better to have the problem fixed, or better to get revenge? In aviation, for example, some mechanics in Chicago were putting jet engines on using the wrong procedure. This resulted in a crack in the engine mount, the engine fell off during takeoff, resulting in a fiery crash where everyone died. Everyone cooperated with the investigation. The mechanics were not criminally charged. The procedures were changed so it wouldn't happen again. Under your proposal, the shop would have had every incentive to alter records, deny, obfuscate, and in general impede finding the truth as much as possible. Do you think that would have been better? I know of no cases where mechanics, engineers, air traffic controllers, regulators or pilots were criminally charged in a fatal accident. The result is we have incredibly safe air travel. I don't know about you, but I'm happy about that result.

atomical 9y ago

A software developer fucked up. It could have been much worse. It's going to make our industry look worse if we aren't held accountable.

pentagonpapers 9y ago
Nah, I'd rather not be held accountable for endless scope creep and 80 hour work weeks delivering a product I repeatedly called a pile of bugs
- m4x 9y ago
  Engineers who are held responsible for their work and can go to jail when they get it wrong don't accept work conditions like you describe. Software engineering might be a better profession to work in if it was regulated the same way other engineering fields are.
- lostlogin 9y ago
  Makes you wonder if a governing body will ever come about - eg medical councils/boards, engineers associations etc. Presumably it’s these type of problems that they came into existence for. It’s a double edged sword, but often works in the interest of the profession where I am. The biggest difficulty I’d see is that defining a software developer is not prticularly easy.

Mizza 9y ago

A vehicle involved death is always treated as a potential criminal case.

xapata 9y ago
Sure, the police always check for intoxication, etc.

threeseed 9y ago

Not sure about the US but in other countries it often is. In Australia for example if you are using your phone and kill someone you absolutely will be seeing jail time.

paulcole 9y ago

> An inattentive driver killing a pedestrian isn't typically treated as criminal, as far as I know They certainly should be treated like a criminal. They used a deadly weapon to kill someone because they didn’t respect their responsibility.

bunderbunder 9y ago

It's generally considered a form of negligent homicide, which is a crime in the USA.

xapata 9y ago
No, "ordinary" negligence justifies a charge of vehicular manslaughter, which has lesser penalties than plain manslaughter. Even then, it seems like many states require "gross" negligence, like speeding or intoxication to charge with a crime. Someone who simply "didn't see the pedestrian" but was otherwise following the law will likely not be charged with a crime. They'll get sued, of course.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> An inattentive driver killing a pedestrian isn't typically treated as criminal, as far as I know. It's usually, though exact standards vary, vehicular homicide if there is criminal negligence, which can include inattention while driving especially if it results in a citable (on its own, before considering the fatality) violation of a traffic mandate that causes then fatality.