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This is so easy to type, but I imagine it would be much harder for you to devise any kind of system wherein I get to maintain a high standard of living and some

This is so easy to type, but I imagine it would be much harder for you to devise any kind of system wherein I get to maintain a high standard of living and somehow don't have to work for a living. My employers tell me what to do, yes; but have you ever thought that perhaps I like the exchange, and find it valuable to have someone who tells me what to do to get to an end result where I get a decent, reliable wage for doing so? And how under socialism am I going to be freed from having to labour? If nobody labours, nothing will get done. Conversely, if I labour and see a massively reduced benefit from doing so personally, I will hardly be inspired to work hard.

meko 9y ago
These are earnest questions seemingly asked in good faith so Ill try to respond in kind (although my comments are all dead for some reason, so I hope you can see this). socialism is not about 'ending work', it's about the relationship the worker has to his output. "but who will clean the toilets?" probably the same people that do it now, but they will be paid the full value of their labor instead of having most of it skimmed off the top in the name of "profit". Corporate Profit doesn't really exist in socialism, because profit by definition is surplus value. This value needs to ends up in the hands of the people who produce it. under this, toilet cleaning (sanitation) becomes a more lucrative job prospect because the compensation would be higher. "but how can businesses be run without a single private entity handing down orders from the top" same as they are now, with people working together. It may seem like a stretch to think of a society where the population is empowered enough that employees can self administrate, but ome needs to look no farther than the open source community for good examples of it being possible. "but software developers are smart people! they aren't like the mindless drones doing my laundry" arguments for why that is textbook classism aside, we got ourselves into this position because that's the society we've cultivated, it's not some fundamental aspect of our species that 'most of us are dumb that's why we need rich people to tell us what to do' on some level that's true, we are but animals. However it applies to economic elites too: they are also just animals, and despite the smoke and mirrors still deal with the limitations of our biology. being smart or good at something should be it's own reward. having more money than they can reasonably spend ends up becoming a self preserving entity on it's own, rent seeking and legalized bribery and so on. if you want to learn more about this phenomena, I recommend reading Marx's Das Kapital. it's easy to think we have a "high standard of living" under capitalism when that's all we've known, especially in the last bastion of the middle class that is the tech sector. but look at our (non)prescription drug use, depression rates, access to healthcare and living necessities for the most vulnerable (children, special needs, elderly minorities), our unemployment rate, our incarceration rate, our impact on the environment, the international conflicts and affairs we're involved in and you'll find a _very_ different picture being painted. If it wasn't for empty calories like McDonald's and Coke we'd probably have a food crisis too, but instead we just make the poor fat with sugar and other junk.
jim-jim-jim 9y ago
Socialism isn't the abolition of labor. That would be silly. It's a redirection of our energy towards meeting society's needs. Compare that to our current system, where a large portion of a day's work is spent enriching the holder of capital. Those who have nothing to sell but their own labor (they lack the capital necessary to acquire means of production) are forced to accept "voluntary" contracts where they are compensated at less than the value their work produces. This alienation is something akin to slavery, except that we can choose our plantation. I won't drag this thread deeply off course with a rundown of Marxist thought, but if you're interested in some light reading (~60 pages) "An Introduction to Marxist Theory" by Ernest Mandel elaborates upon this in a digestible manner. There's also Paul Cockshott's "Towards a New Socialism", which explores the implementation details of proposed alternatives to capitalism. He writes about how me might "maintain a high standard of living and somehow don't have to work [for a privileged few] for a living."

meko 9y ago

These are earnest questions seemingly asked in good faith so Ill try to respond in kind (although my comments are all dead for some reason, so I hope you can see this). socialism is not about 'ending work', it's about the relationship the worker has to his output. "but who will clean the toilets?" probably the same people that do it now, but they will be paid the full value of their labor instead of having most of it skimmed off the top in the name of "profit". Corporate Profit doesn't really exist in socialism, because profit by definition is surplus value. This value needs to ends up in the hands of the people who produce it. under this, toilet cleaning (sanitation) becomes a more lucrative job prospect because the compensation would be higher. "but how can businesses be run without a single private entity handing down orders from the top" same as they are now, with people working together. It may seem like a stretch to think of a society where the population is empowered enough that employees can self administrate, but ome needs to look no farther than the open source community for good examples of it being possible. "but software developers are smart people! they aren't like the mindless drones doing my laundry" arguments for why that is textbook classism aside, we got ourselves into this position because that's the society we've cultivated, it's not some fundamental aspect of our species that 'most of us are dumb that's why we need rich people to tell us what to do' on some level that's true, we are but animals. However it applies to economic elites too: they are also just animals, and despite the smoke and mirrors still deal with the limitations of our biology. being smart or good at something should be it's own reward. having more money than they can reasonably spend ends up becoming a self preserving entity on it's own, rent seeking and legalized bribery and so on. if you want to learn more about this phenomena, I recommend reading Marx's Das Kapital. it's easy to think we have a "high standard of living" under capitalism when that's all we've known, especially in the last bastion of the middle class that is the tech sector. but look at our (non)prescription drug use, depression rates, access to healthcare and living necessities for the most vulnerable (children, special needs, elderly minorities), our unemployment rate, our incarceration rate, our impact on the environment, the international conflicts and affairs we're involved in and you'll find a _very_ different picture being painted. If it wasn't for empty calories like McDonald's and Coke we'd probably have a food crisis too, but instead we just make the poor fat with sugar and other junk.

jim-jim-jim 9y ago

Socialism isn't the abolition of labor. That would be silly. It's a redirection of our energy towards meeting society's needs. Compare that to our current system, where a large portion of a day's work is spent enriching the holder of capital. Those who have nothing to sell but their own labor (they lack the capital necessary to acquire means of production) are forced to accept "voluntary" contracts where they are compensated at less than the value their work produces. This alienation is something akin to slavery, except that we can choose our plantation. I won't drag this thread deeply off course with a rundown of Marxist thought, but if you're interested in some light reading (~60 pages) "An Introduction to Marxist Theory" by Ernest Mandel elaborates upon this in a digestible manner. There's also Paul Cockshott's "Towards a New Socialism", which explores the implementation details of proposed alternatives to capitalism. He writes about how me might "maintain a high standard of living and somehow don't have to work [for a privileged few] for a living."