6 ms·

I don't understand why the default behavior isn't to isolate every website from every other website? Why is least privacy the default?

proaralyst 9y ago
That is mostly the case. However, other websites may ask your browser to make requests to Facebook domains (to load in social buttons or tracking scripts/pixels). Those requests will include any cookies your browser has for Facebook as they're direct to Facebook domains. This extension gives Firefox selective amnesia: if you're in a Facebook container tab, it'll remember and send those cookies. If you're not, it won't! An alternative solution is to never make those third party requests in the first place, but you might need some of them for content you're actually interested in viewing. Using both a blocking extension and this container extension should improve your privacy towards Facebook.
- throwawayReply 9y ago
  There's a "Same-Site" cookie flag that helps prevent CSRF by preventing cookies being sent in that scenario. Can the browser be made to treat all cookies as "same-site" for a quick 'fix' to this issue? Obviously this would need a white-list (and a pair<from,to> whitelist, not just "this domain is OK list) to allow SSO scenarios.
  - tscs37 9y ago
    Simply set the configuration value privacy.firstparty.isolate in your about:config. This will treat every first party domain as it's own container for cookies and other stuff.
  - UncleMeat 9y ago
    Yes, but as you say this breaks a large number of applications. The web browsers aren't super likely to break existing behavior since people simply blame the browser that whatever thing doesn't work.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
  There’s uMatrix for that of course but is uBlock Origin and PrivacyBadger combo enough with this extension? As the de-facto tech guy in my family I know how to take care of my own privacy but I’m always searching for the most hands off solution for the tech illiterate family members who come to me asking to “fix their laptops”.
  - dao- 9y ago
    Have you considered Tracking Protection? https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/tracking-protection https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/tracking-protection I had to disable it for a few select sites but I guess there's currently no solution that won't ever break a site.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  This begs the follow up question: Why can’t my browser always send zero cookies for all third party requests in all tabs? Presumably the like button wouldn’t work - but that’s what I want. So the Q is: what will break that I didn’t want to break?
  - cachvico 9y ago
    Single sign-on? (e.g. logging in to Trello with your Google account)
    - romanovcode 9y ago
      If you get tokens by callback urls you don't need any 3rd party cookies.
      - cachvico 9y ago
        That's not relevant to the question.
  - bugmen0t 9y ago
    It breaks federation, i.e., Single SignOn. But there's a thing for Firefox which does it for all sites. Called First Party Isolation.
    - DesiLurker 9y ago
      knowing what fb is doing with your data, why would you still want SSO?
      - Groxx 9y ago
        Because it doesn't have a way to break only FB SSO. All SSO would break by default.
        Spivak 9y ago
6a68 9y ago
> I don't understand why the default behavior isn't to isolate every website from every other website? Why is least privacy the default? Default privacy settings are tough to manage. Some people want privacy, and will accept broken websites if it keeps their data and online movement private. Other people just want their usual websites to work, don't understand or care to think about privacy, and if some random content farm looks busted in Firefox, will just switch to another browser. Aside from picking a sensible default, Firefox also offers to educate users where it makes sense. For example, when you open a new private browsing window in Firefox, the tracking protection section includes a "See how it works" button that takes you to a tour-style walkthrough of how tracking protection works.
bugmen0t 9y ago
It's likely breaking lots of websites that do single sign-on and similar federated/multi-domain things You can set Firefox to behave that way, though. Look for First Party Isolation.
briffle 9y ago
you can do that with the firefox Multi-Account containers extension. I don't go to that extreme, but its nice to have a few key profiles. I have work and personal, plus a few others (like banking). What is really nice, is you can tell it to ALWAYS open your banks website in a particular container, and it will. If you go to that URL from a tab in your work profile, it will switch to the banking profile for you.
groovecoder 9y ago
Disclosure: I'm the author of the add-on mentioned in the story. Basically, various privacy protections cause various kinds of website breakage. https://blog.mozilla.org/data/2018/01/26/improving-privacy-without-breaking-the-web/ https://blog.mozilla.org/data/2018/01/26/improving-privacy-w...
- cuckcuckspruce 9y ago
  Then those websites should be considered broken much like we consider Adobe Flash and sites with invalid TLS certificates.
  - billysielu 9y ago
    Agreed. There are good kinds of broken.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    The problem is that basically all of Google’s products would be affected, which is something no browser can easily ship without angering users.
    - ballenf 9y ago
      Can you elaborate? Is there some reason that running every Google property except google search (unless desired, but I prefer non-tailored results) in one container wouldn't work?
      - JetSpiegel 9y ago
        In that case each origin is not really getting an isolated cookie jar.
  - groovecoder 9y ago
    I really like that perspective! A few more high-profile cases like this and we just might nudge the internet in this direction! :)
gregknicholson 9y ago
> I don't understand why the default behavior isn't to isolate every website from every other website? There's an add-on that does something close to that: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/temporary-containers/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/temporary-con... This add-on's options include opening each (sub)domain in its own container. These containers are temporary: they're deleted a short time after you close their last tab, so you have to log back into each site on each visit. (This may be something you do anyway.) I don't (yet?) know of an add-on that automatically assigns each domain you visit to its own permanent container, and automatically creates new containers for each new domain.

proaralyst 9y ago

That is mostly the case. However, other websites may ask your browser to make requests to Facebook domains (to load in social buttons or tracking scripts/pixels). Those requests will include any cookies your browser has for Facebook as they're direct to Facebook domains. This extension gives Firefox selective amnesia: if you're in a Facebook container tab, it'll remember and send those cookies. If you're not, it won't! An alternative solution is to never make those third party requests in the first place, but you might need some of them for content you're actually interested in viewing. Using both a blocking extension and this container extension should improve your privacy towards Facebook.

throwawayReply 9y ago
There's a "Same-Site" cookie flag that helps prevent CSRF by preventing cookies being sent in that scenario. Can the browser be made to treat all cookies as "same-site" for a quick 'fix' to this issue? Obviously this would need a white-list (and a pair<from,to> whitelist, not just "this domain is OK list) to allow SSO scenarios.
- tscs37 9y ago
  Simply set the configuration value privacy.firstparty.isolate in your about:config. This will treat every first party domain as it's own container for cookies and other stuff.
- UncleMeat 9y ago
  Yes, but as you say this breaks a large number of applications. The web browsers aren't super likely to break existing behavior since people simply blame the browser that whatever thing doesn't work.
SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
There’s uMatrix for that of course but is uBlock Origin and PrivacyBadger combo enough with this extension? As the de-facto tech guy in my family I know how to take care of my own privacy but I’m always searching for the most hands off solution for the tech illiterate family members who come to me asking to “fix their laptops”.
- dao- 9y ago
  Have you considered Tracking Protection? https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/tracking-protection https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/tracking-protection I had to disable it for a few select sites but I guess there's currently no solution that won't ever break a site.
alkonaut 9y ago
This begs the follow up question: Why can’t my browser always send zero cookies for all third party requests in all tabs? Presumably the like button wouldn’t work - but that’s what I want. So the Q is: what will break that I didn’t want to break?
- cachvico 9y ago
  Single sign-on? (e.g. logging in to Trello with your Google account)
  - romanovcode 9y ago
    If you get tokens by callback urls you don't need any 3rd party cookies.
    - cachvico 9y ago
      That's not relevant to the question.
- bugmen0t 9y ago
  It breaks federation, i.e., Single SignOn. But there's a thing for Firefox which does it for all sites. Called First Party Isolation.
  - DesiLurker 9y ago
    knowing what fb is doing with your data, why would you still want SSO?
    - Groxx 9y ago
      Because it doesn't have a way to break only FB SSO. All SSO would break by default.
      - Spivak 9y ago

6a68 9y ago

> I don't understand why the default behavior isn't to isolate every website from every other website? Why is least privacy the default? Default privacy settings are tough to manage. Some people want privacy, and will accept broken websites if it keeps their data and online movement private. Other people just want their usual websites to work, don't understand or care to think about privacy, and if some random content farm looks busted in Firefox, will just switch to another browser. Aside from picking a sensible default, Firefox also offers to educate users where it makes sense. For example, when you open a new private browsing window in Firefox, the tracking protection section includes a "See how it works" button that takes you to a tour-style walkthrough of how tracking protection works.

bugmen0t 9y ago

It's likely breaking lots of websites that do single sign-on and similar federated/multi-domain things You can set Firefox to behave that way, though. Look for First Party Isolation.

briffle 9y ago

you can do that with the firefox Multi-Account containers extension. I don't go to that extreme, but its nice to have a few key profiles. I have work and personal, plus a few others (like banking). What is really nice, is you can tell it to ALWAYS open your banks website in a particular container, and it will. If you go to that URL from a tab in your work profile, it will switch to the banking profile for you.

groovecoder 9y ago

Disclosure: I'm the author of the add-on mentioned in the story. Basically, various privacy protections cause various kinds of website breakage. https://blog.mozilla.org/data/2018/01/26/improving-privacy-without-breaking-the-web/ https://blog.mozilla.org/data/2018/01/26/improving-privacy-w...

cuckcuckspruce 9y ago
Then those websites should be considered broken much like we consider Adobe Flash and sites with invalid TLS certificates.
- billysielu 9y ago
  Agreed. There are good kinds of broken.
- kuschku 9y ago
  The problem is that basically all of Google’s products would be affected, which is something no browser can easily ship without angering users.
  - ballenf 9y ago
    Can you elaborate? Is there some reason that running every Google property except google search (unless desired, but I prefer non-tailored results) in one container wouldn't work?
    - JetSpiegel 9y ago
      In that case each origin is not really getting an isolated cookie jar.
- groovecoder 9y ago
  I really like that perspective! A few more high-profile cases like this and we just might nudge the internet in this direction! :)

gregknicholson 9y ago

> I don't understand why the default behavior isn't to isolate every website from every other website? There's an add-on that does something close to that: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/temporary-containers/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/temporary-con... This add-on's options include opening each (sub)domain in its own container. These containers are temporary: they're deleted a short time after you close their last tab, so you have to log back into each site on each visit. (This may be something you do anyway.) I don't (yet?) know of an add-on that automatically assigns each domain you visit to its own permanent container, and automatically creates new containers for each new domain.