6 ms·

Android arguably saved Java by making it much more relevant than it otherwise would have been.

headhuntermdk 9y ago
But isn't that the point? That Google uses the Java infrastructure, but when it comes down to licensing, it isn't Java anymore? Google made a business decision to not buy a license and time will tell if that was a good decision or not.
saiya-jin 9y ago
Android popularity (or demise) does have 0 impact on server-side Java. We don't share the toolset, we don't run the same JVMs etc. Call it Jiva if you like. Google should go Kotlin way, it will be better for everybody.
Spivak 9y ago
Whaaa? I mean Java is undoubtedly more popular because of Android but it's not like it was hurting before. Sure, there aren't a lot of consumer-facing applications running Java but it's pretty much the standard on the enterprise side of things.
- dlanouette 9y ago
  Java on mobile was (virtually) dead before Android. Now it's thriving and relevant again.
  - dagw 9y ago
    Java on mobile was (virtually) dead before Android. Now it's thriving and relevant again. Perhaps, but is that a good thing if you're Oracle? Especially considering the fact that it's Google Java that's thriving and not Oracle Java.
    - dlanouette 9y ago
      It seems to me that it's a good thing for Oracle. Oracle/Sun was never going to make any headway in the mobile space. It just wasn't going to happen. So, it wasn't a loss to them, because they had already lost that market. But, with Android, Java got a boost that bled over to the server, and to a lesser extent, the desktop. It can be argued what the size of that boost was, and if it had any real impact (I would argue that it was not significant), but it was still a boost that they never would have had. Anyway, that's the opinion of some random guy on the internet.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Java was already king of the enterprise server long before Android happened. Around 2006, many companies were moving their server stacks from C++, considered old and stagnated, into Java application servers. I took part in several such projects.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    It was thriving in Europe, on flaghship Nokia and Sony-Ericson devices. SavaJe OS was going to be the next generation when Android came into the scene. Android first architecture diagrams look quite similar to the initial SavaJe OS presentations.
    - monocasa 9y ago
      SavaJe went bankrupt two years before Android was released.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        And who bought their assets? Sun.
        monocasa 9y ago
        After Android was released. And after the IP assets had been laying around on the market more than two years. Sun buying SavaJe was pretty clearly a response to Android, so it's pretty disingenuous to say that Android killed SavaJe.
        pjmlp 9y ago
        Apparently we live in different timelines: 1999 - SavaJe is founded 2006 - Jasper S20 with SavaJe OS gets presented at Java ONE 2006 - End of the year, SavaJe fails to gain another round of investment, in spite of the successful reception at Java ONE 2007 - April, Sun public announcement to buy SavaJe assets 2007 - November, Open Handset Alliance is created 2008 - November, HTC Dream gets released as the very first Android device. The initial architecture diagrams have a certain resemblance with SavaJe ones. The OS that came to be Android started in 2003, was initially based in JavaScript, had lots of time to inspire on Java stacks after they pivoted to Java and were eventually bought by Google. Only after SavaJe was no longer around, it became public what Google was up to regarding their mobile OS strategy.
        9y ago
  - miskin 9y ago
    J2ME was king on mobile devices in Europe (at least). Moreover, SUN had licencing fees from J2ME and if I remember correctly, you could not use Java on mobile devices without paying fee to SUN. So, it was their source of income and Google abused that. Just check interview (many times referenced here in comments) with James Gosling to see what the feelins on SUN side were. At that point, they were already underdogs compared to Google. This is all about greedy Google business behaviour and I think with Oracle they just got nice sparing partner to play legal war games with. SUN was too nice for them.
BoorishBears 9y ago
I’m don't agree with that, the big reason why what Google did was so vexing was the timing. Java was just starting to get revitalized after a long period of stagnation. Java 7 was a big deal and for a long time Android devs were limited to a weird amalgamation of Java 6 and a few Java 7 features. Then Java 8 came with lots of great Stream goodies (and a lot more) while Android devs are still forced do to make due with unofficial backports or cutting off most Android devices (API 24) is the first to support them natively. Android development gets mindshare for Android, not Java. The speed of the transition from Java to Kotlin shows how antsy devs were to get away from Java. There are interesting things happening with Java, and they’re all outside of Android
- wolfgke 9y ago
  > Java was just starting to get revitalized after a long period of stagnation. Java 7 was a big deal and for a long time Android devs were limited to a weird amalgamation of Java 6 and a few Java 7 features. Counterclaim: If it were not such a big legal hazzle, it would have been a lot more easy for Google to update to new Java versions fast on Android.
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    How so?
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      Just to give examples that look plausible to me: Because of the legal burden Google decided to implement their own version of the Java standard library based on Apache Harmony. With every new version of Java coming there might be new legal pitfalls to consider and surely almost always the sword of Damocles that Oracle might consider the fact that Google implemented new Java features as a reason to extort more money from Google since they implemented additional copyrighted APIs.
      - BoorishBears 9y ago
        But they’ve already went and switched to OpenJDK. Apparently the risk was not so large they couldn’t do it if they’ve decided to now
anonymouse11 9y ago
What is it with all these ignorant but highly opinionated folks seemingly astro turfing for Google? Java remains very strong on the server side and it hardly needs Android to "save" it.

But isn't that the point? That Google uses the Java infrastructure, but when it comes down to licensing, it isn't Java anymore? Google made a business decision to not buy a license and time will tell if that was a good decision or not.

saiya-jin 9y ago

Android popularity (or demise) does have 0 impact on server-side Java. We don't share the toolset, we don't run the same JVMs etc. Call it Jiva if you like. Google should go Kotlin way, it will be better for everybody.

Spivak 9y ago

Whaaa? I mean Java is undoubtedly more popular because of Android but it's not like it was hurting before. Sure, there aren't a lot of consumer-facing applications running Java but it's pretty much the standard on the enterprise side of things.

dlanouette 9y ago
Java on mobile was (virtually) dead before Android. Now it's thriving and relevant again.
- dagw 9y ago
  Java on mobile was (virtually) dead before Android. Now it's thriving and relevant again. Perhaps, but is that a good thing if you're Oracle? Especially considering the fact that it's Google Java that's thriving and not Oracle Java.
  - dlanouette 9y ago
    It seems to me that it's a good thing for Oracle. Oracle/Sun was never going to make any headway in the mobile space. It just wasn't going to happen. So, it wasn't a loss to them, because they had already lost that market. But, with Android, Java got a boost that bled over to the server, and to a lesser extent, the desktop. It can be argued what the size of that boost was, and if it had any real impact (I would argue that it was not significant), but it was still a boost that they never would have had. Anyway, that's the opinion of some random guy on the internet.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Java was already king of the enterprise server long before Android happened. Around 2006, many companies were moving their server stacks from C++, considered old and stagnated, into Java application servers. I took part in several such projects.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  It was thriving in Europe, on flaghship Nokia and Sony-Ericson devices. SavaJe OS was going to be the next generation when Android came into the scene. Android first architecture diagrams look quite similar to the initial SavaJe OS presentations.
  - monocasa 9y ago
    SavaJe went bankrupt two years before Android was released.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      And who bought their assets? Sun.
      - monocasa 9y ago
        After Android was released. And after the IP assets had been laying around on the market more than two years. Sun buying SavaJe was pretty clearly a response to Android, so it's pretty disingenuous to say that Android killed SavaJe.
        pjmlp 9y ago
        Apparently we live in different timelines: 1999 - SavaJe is founded 2006 - Jasper S20 with SavaJe OS gets presented at Java ONE 2006 - End of the year, SavaJe fails to gain another round of investment, in spite of the successful reception at Java ONE 2007 - April, Sun public announcement to buy SavaJe assets 2007 - November, Open Handset Alliance is created 2008 - November, HTC Dream gets released as the very first Android device. The initial architecture diagrams have a certain resemblance with SavaJe ones. The OS that came to be Android started in 2003, was initially based in JavaScript, had lots of time to inspire on Java stacks after they pivoted to Java and were eventually bought by Google. Only after SavaJe was no longer around, it became public what Google was up to regarding their mobile OS strategy.
        9y ago
- miskin 9y ago
  J2ME was king on mobile devices in Europe (at least). Moreover, SUN had licencing fees from J2ME and if I remember correctly, you could not use Java on mobile devices without paying fee to SUN. So, it was their source of income and Google abused that. Just check interview (many times referenced here in comments) with James Gosling to see what the feelins on SUN side were. At that point, they were already underdogs compared to Google. This is all about greedy Google business behaviour and I think with Oracle they just got nice sparing partner to play legal war games with. SUN was too nice for them.

BoorishBears 9y ago

I’m don't agree with that, the big reason why what Google did was so vexing was the timing. Java was just starting to get revitalized after a long period of stagnation. Java 7 was a big deal and for a long time Android devs were limited to a weird amalgamation of Java 6 and a few Java 7 features. Then Java 8 came with lots of great Stream goodies (and a lot more) while Android devs are still forced do to make due with unofficial backports or cutting off most Android devices (API 24) is the first to support them natively. Android development gets mindshare for Android, not Java. The speed of the transition from Java to Kotlin shows how antsy devs were to get away from Java. There are interesting things happening with Java, and they’re all outside of Android

wolfgke 9y ago
> Java was just starting to get revitalized after a long period of stagnation. Java 7 was a big deal and for a long time Android devs were limited to a weird amalgamation of Java 6 and a few Java 7 features. Counterclaim: If it were not such a big legal hazzle, it would have been a lot more easy for Google to update to new Java versions fast on Android.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  How so?
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    Just to give examples that look plausible to me: Because of the legal burden Google decided to implement their own version of the Java standard library based on Apache Harmony. With every new version of Java coming there might be new legal pitfalls to consider and surely almost always the sword of Damocles that Oracle might consider the fact that Google implemented new Java features as a reason to extort more money from Google since they implemented additional copyrighted APIs.
    - BoorishBears 9y ago
      But they’ve already went and switched to OpenJDK. Apparently the risk was not so large they couldn’t do it if they’ve decided to now

anonymouse11 9y ago

What is it with all these ignorant but highly opinionated folks seemingly astro turfing for Google? Java remains very strong on the server side and it hardly needs Android to "save" it.