6 ms·

I don't have a solution, I'm just ranting here. Sorry. This is just an extension of conservatism being scared of sex and women going their own way. Like it or

I don't have a solution, I'm just ranting here. Sorry. This is just an extension of conservatism being scared of sex and women going their own way. Like it or not, prostitution has helped many people rise out of poverty and even make societies (the "west" back in the early US days) around their business. Laws like this are very hard to vote against because of TV ads opponents of politicians could run demonizing them.

guitarbill 9y ago
Most western countries have legalized sex work in some way simply because it's pragmatic, realistic, and harm-reducing. Even the countries where buying sex is illegal, but selling isn't, recognize this. Although that's still a shitty, moral-driven standpoint IMO, at least such a policy acknowledges basic human decency at some level. In fact, most western countries strive for policies that don't actively cheapen human life, regardless of political alignment.
txsh 9y ago
The bill passed the senate 97-2. This is about censorship and liberals want censorship just as much as conservatives do. Voting against it: Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky)
- duckMuppet 9y ago
  Bingo.
- aaomidi 9y ago
  I never assumed democrats aren't conservative when it comes to social values. Toxicity towards women taking control of their sexuality runs deep within our society.
- blattimwind 9y ago
  Why does "liberal" mean something essentially unrelated to "liberal" in American politics? How did that come about?
  - grzm 9y ago
    Here’s one explanation: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/02/the-origin-of-liberalism/283780/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/02/the-ori...
  - neonhomer 9y ago
    It seems that very few political meanings are accurate when it comes to US politics. The terms liberal and conservative have pretty much lost all their original meaning.
  - freehunter 9y ago
    Liberal compared to the other party, which is far-right.
    - meko 9y ago
      but the far right still falls under the umbrella of Classical Liberalism, they're reactionary liberals, but still liberals. If you 'believe' in the market and private ownership of capital a` la Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, then you fall into that political purview. it's the dominant ideology of the developed world.
  - spiralx 9y ago
    Because the original use referred to economic liberalism, whereas in the US the term has come to refer to social liberalism.
- sgift 9y ago
  What Americans call liberals is "right" in the rest of the world. Versus "far-right" which is what Americans call conservatives. When Americans talk about "far-left" the rest of the world reads "center" .. there's no such thing as real "far-left" in American politics.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
jim-jim-jim 9y ago
I don't agree with this particular law, but "money exchanges hands, so it's okay" isn't an excuse for prostitution. We can build a society where women prosper without being subjected to institutional rape.
- aaomidi 9y ago
  I don't apply the same logic other places. But banning places from having conversations about how to do it safely is a stupid idea and is going to end with more people hurt. This law benefits no one. If someone is having to resort to prostitution they will, just without the support network they need.
  - jim-jim-jim 9y ago
    There's definitely value in an Erowid type site that contains legal/health info related to prostitution without serving as a venue for the practice itself. > If someone is having to resort to prostitution they will, just without the support network they need. That's why I'm generally in favor of what has been called the "Nordic Model," which decriminalizes selling sex and keeps workers in touch with public services, but makes it illegal to operate a brothel and purchase sex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  Rape is just yet another coerced and forced work for subsistence. Aside being 'sex', there's not much difference between other types of work that one is required to do to make money and eat and live in a shelter. At the end, you're mentally and physically tired. And you used a good chunk of your day being productive for someone else so they can make even more money on that.
- eanzenberg 9y ago
  Prostitution is rape now? Hmm lol..
  - jim-jim-jim 9y ago
AnthonyMouse 9y ago
> Laws like this are very hard to vote against because of TV ads opponents of politicians could run demonizing them. I've never understood this argument. Many bills are a thousand pages long and involve dozens of completely unrelated subject matters. If you vote for the bill your opponents will be able to use it against you because some parts of it are unpopular. If you vote against it your opponents will be able to use it against you because some parts of it are popular. So how is that an argument to vote for it? If anything it's an argument to vote against it. If you vote against it you can at least provide a defensible reason -- you were voting against the bad parts of the bill, not the good parts of the bill. By contrast, voting for a bill with poison in it is completely indefensible because the alternative exists to hold out for a bill with only the good parts. People understand that doing nothing is better than doing something bad.
- aaomidi 9y ago
  The argument really stands where senate votes nearly unanimously on a bill and then a court strikes it down for being too overreaching. We've had this happen with a lot of "child pornography" laws in the past. I'm waiting for ACLU to take this to the courts.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
oliwarner 9y ago
> prostitution has helped many people I'd be interested to see who it's helped most. The prostitutes, their pimps and brothels or the global network of human traffickers who indenture these people who just want a better life. The ideals and realities of prostitution, like many things, can be very different.

guitarbill 9y ago

Most western countries have legalized sex work in some way simply because it's pragmatic, realistic, and harm-reducing. Even the countries where buying sex is illegal, but selling isn't, recognize this. Although that's still a shitty, moral-driven standpoint IMO, at least such a policy acknowledges basic human decency at some level. In fact, most western countries strive for policies that don't actively cheapen human life, regardless of political alignment.

txsh 9y ago

The bill passed the senate 97-2. This is about censorship and liberals want censorship just as much as conservatives do. Voting against it: Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky)

duckMuppet 9y ago
Bingo.
aaomidi 9y ago
I never assumed democrats aren't conservative when it comes to social values. Toxicity towards women taking control of their sexuality runs deep within our society.
blattimwind 9y ago
Why does "liberal" mean something essentially unrelated to "liberal" in American politics? How did that come about?
- grzm 9y ago
  Here’s one explanation: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/02/the-origin-of-liberalism/283780/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/02/the-ori...
- neonhomer 9y ago
  It seems that very few political meanings are accurate when it comes to US politics. The terms liberal and conservative have pretty much lost all their original meaning.
- freehunter 9y ago
  Liberal compared to the other party, which is far-right.
  - meko 9y ago
    but the far right still falls under the umbrella of Classical Liberalism, they're reactionary liberals, but still liberals. If you 'believe' in the market and private ownership of capital a` la Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, then you fall into that political purview. it's the dominant ideology of the developed world.
- spiralx 9y ago
  Because the original use referred to economic liberalism, whereas in the US the term has come to refer to social liberalism.
sgift 9y ago
What Americans call liberals is "right" in the rest of the world. Versus "far-right" which is what Americans call conservatives. When Americans talk about "far-left" the rest of the world reads "center" .. there's no such thing as real "far-left" in American politics.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

jim-jim-jim 9y ago

I don't agree with this particular law, but "money exchanges hands, so it's okay" isn't an excuse for prostitution. We can build a society where women prosper without being subjected to institutional rape.

aaomidi 9y ago
I don't apply the same logic other places. But banning places from having conversations about how to do it safely is a stupid idea and is going to end with more people hurt. This law benefits no one. If someone is having to resort to prostitution they will, just without the support network they need.
- jim-jim-jim 9y ago
  There's definitely value in an Erowid type site that contains legal/health info related to prostitution without serving as a venue for the practice itself. > If someone is having to resort to prostitution they will, just without the support network they need. That's why I'm generally in favor of what has been called the "Nordic Model," which decriminalizes selling sex and keeps workers in touch with public services, but makes it illegal to operate a brothel and purchase sex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden
crankylinuxuser 9y ago
Rape is just yet another coerced and forced work for subsistence. Aside being 'sex', there's not much difference between other types of work that one is required to do to make money and eat and live in a shelter. At the end, you're mentally and physically tired. And you used a good chunk of your day being productive for someone else so they can make even more money on that.
eanzenberg 9y ago
Prostitution is rape now? Hmm lol..
- jim-jim-jim 9y ago

AnthonyMouse 9y ago

> Laws like this are very hard to vote against because of TV ads opponents of politicians could run demonizing them. I've never understood this argument. Many bills are a thousand pages long and involve dozens of completely unrelated subject matters. If you vote for the bill your opponents will be able to use it against you because some parts of it are unpopular. If you vote against it your opponents will be able to use it against you because some parts of it are popular. So how is that an argument to vote for it? If anything it's an argument to vote against it. If you vote against it you can at least provide a defensible reason -- you were voting against the bad parts of the bill, not the good parts of the bill. By contrast, voting for a bill with poison in it is completely indefensible because the alternative exists to hold out for a bill with only the good parts. People understand that doing nothing is better than doing something bad.

aaomidi 9y ago
The argument really stands where senate votes nearly unanimously on a bill and then a court strikes it down for being too overreaching. We've had this happen with a lot of "child pornography" laws in the past. I'm waiting for ACLU to take this to the courts.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

oliwarner 9y ago

> prostitution has helped many people I'd be interested to see who it's helped most. The prostitutes, their pimps and brothels or the global network of human traffickers who indenture these people who just want a better life. The ideals and realities of prostitution, like many things, can be very different.