6 ms·

If anyone wonders how we got to this point, I think that is understandable. Here are a few thoughts: It’s easy to overlook how much advertising works. We each

by gt_ 9y ago

If anyone wonders how we got to this point, I think that is understandable. Here are a few thoughts: It’s easy to overlook how much advertising works. We each have a limited supply of bandwidth for perceiving the world we live in. The result is a high demand for undermining that perception and using it to manipulative ends. Authoritarian dystopias from books and films usually illustrate force because force is more immediately graphic. It also reflects the dismal state of a dystopian existence. Manipulation would look a lot different. Fear of manipulation is a fear of knowing someone else is trying to manipulate you. We don’t regularly notice evidence of brands and companies trying to manipulate us, but most of us understand they are incentivized to. I have worked in advertising for almost a decade and the truth is much worse. Although individuals who work at companies may be on your side, they get paid to spend their days doin what the company tells them to. Even managers and CEOS may be great people but when they go work, they are an employee. They have a duty to the company. And, the more efficient and skilled we get at manipulating members of society into behaviors which direct money our way, the employees will remain working for the company. Are the employees immoral? Not from the perspective of the family they support. And whose opinion is more important? The family’s. It’s pretty simple that we cannot expect individual decisions to compete with those of the profit-motivated companies they work for.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
> Are the employees immoral? Not from the perspective of the family they support. And whose opinion is more important? The family’s. It’s pretty simple that we cannot expect individual decisions to compete with those of the profit-motivated companies they work for. We could expect more on a social level, though. I still don't fully understand how did we get to the point when marketing became a respectable occupation. Something young people dream about being part of, when they learn to be a graphic designer, or a programmer, or a media person. I guess it's the consequence of how much money the industry makes. But looking at it from the top, we're literally celebrating the profession that's meant to exploit and hurt other people. If I came to you, as a friend, and did to you what half of the adtech companies do to people at large, I'd get - rightfully - punched in the face. And yet we tolerate that happening at scale.
- AndrewThrowaway 9y ago
  What fascinates me is how marketing/media people seem to be detached from general public as they were living in some parallel universe. You would think nobody would like that their wife, daughter, ageing father would be tracked all over the internet, algorithms be used on them to target stuff to them and etc. However when adtech company proposes yet another tracking/targeting big data cross-device etc. algorithm it is always met up with standing ovation by marketing people. I guess as long as it makes advertiser/employer happy it is all OK.
  - walrus01 9y ago
    In my experience it is much the same as why people in the US intelligence community are perfectly happy with all of the data-gathering revelations in the Snowden files. In short, if you've already gone through the full process to get a Secret or TS clearance (filling out an SF-86 and going through the full-scope background investigation via US OPM) and work somewhere like the NSA, NRO, DTIC, etc, you've given up so much privacy that it has become effectively meaningless to you.
- lmm 9y ago
  > If I came to you, as a friend, and did to you what half of the adtech companies do to people at large, I'd get - rightfully - punched in the face. And yet we tolerate that happening at scale. What, specifically, are you talking about? "Hey, have you heard about x, it seems like your kind of thing" from friends is entirely welcome.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Me: Hey, have you heard about X? X is super awesome! It's the leading $FOO on the market [[in fact, I'm lying here, but you'd have to compare X to alternatives to discover that]]!. Me: Oh, have you heard about X? Really, X. [[We sit in front of TV to watch a game.]] Me: Oh, before we watch, you have to listen to this. X. X is the thing. It's super awesome... [[Halfway through the game.]] Me: Let's take a break now, and talk about why you really should look into X right now! [[Some time later]] You: By the way, why do you think I need this X thing? Me: Oh, it's simple. I've been peeking through your windows for the past few days, and I see that both you and your wife regularly look for A, B and C, which are related to $FOO. Also, I've seen your recent purchase receipts in your thrash can, and it again confirms you're on the market for a $FOO. And X is the leading $FOO on the market!...
crispinb 9y ago
> It’s easy to overlook how much advertising works. It works at a deeper level than you appear to describe. Agricultural society is a machine for converting increasing proportions of the Earth's biomass into larger numbers of biological humans. Culture is a set of practises for creating persons from that raw human material. Marketing is a means for business to capture culture for the purpose of creating persons with values overwhelmingly tilted towards goods-acquisition. The consequent positive feedback loop makes a marketing-driven culture incompatible with the continued existence of a healthy living planet. Marketing's victory over a sustainable culture was well-entrenched before the internet, which is essentially a (powerful) accelerant. We will slide faster into self-destruction with the internet than otherwise, but it's the same destination. A population of self-abnegating saints may have saved us from this, but beyond such fantasies, concentrating on the 'morality' of individuals in advertising is a misdirection. Once the machine was set in motion, the dismal result was probably inevitable.

by gt_ 9y ago

TeMPOraL 9y ago

> Are the employees immoral? Not from the perspective of the family they support. And whose opinion is more important? The family’s. It’s pretty simple that we cannot expect individual decisions to compete with those of the profit-motivated companies they work for. We could expect more on a social level, though. I still don't fully understand how did we get to the point when marketing became a respectable occupation. Something young people dream about being part of, when they learn to be a graphic designer, or a programmer, or a media person. I guess it's the consequence of how much money the industry makes. But looking at it from the top, we're literally celebrating the profession that's meant to exploit and hurt other people. If I came to you, as a friend, and did to you what half of the adtech companies do to people at large, I'd get - rightfully - punched in the face. And yet we tolerate that happening at scale.

AndrewThrowaway 9y ago
What fascinates me is how marketing/media people seem to be detached from general public as they were living in some parallel universe. You would think nobody would like that their wife, daughter, ageing father would be tracked all over the internet, algorithms be used on them to target stuff to them and etc. However when adtech company proposes yet another tracking/targeting big data cross-device etc. algorithm it is always met up with standing ovation by marketing people. I guess as long as it makes advertiser/employer happy it is all OK.
- walrus01 9y ago
  In my experience it is much the same as why people in the US intelligence community are perfectly happy with all of the data-gathering revelations in the Snowden files. In short, if you've already gone through the full process to get a Secret or TS clearance (filling out an SF-86 and going through the full-scope background investigation via US OPM) and work somewhere like the NSA, NRO, DTIC, etc, you've given up so much privacy that it has become effectively meaningless to you.
lmm 9y ago
> If I came to you, as a friend, and did to you what half of the adtech companies do to people at large, I'd get - rightfully - punched in the face. And yet we tolerate that happening at scale. What, specifically, are you talking about? "Hey, have you heard about x, it seems like your kind of thing" from friends is entirely welcome.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Me: Hey, have you heard about X? X is super awesome! It's the leading $FOO on the market [[in fact, I'm lying here, but you'd have to compare X to alternatives to discover that]]!. Me: Oh, have you heard about X? Really, X. [[We sit in front of TV to watch a game.]] Me: Oh, before we watch, you have to listen to this. X. X is the thing. It's super awesome... [[Halfway through the game.]] Me: Let's take a break now, and talk about why you really should look into X right now! [[Some time later]] You: By the way, why do you think I need this X thing? Me: Oh, it's simple. I've been peeking through your windows for the past few days, and I see that both you and your wife regularly look for A, B and C, which are related to $FOO. Also, I've seen your recent purchase receipts in your thrash can, and it again confirms you're on the market for a $FOO. And X is the leading $FOO on the market!...

crispinb 9y ago

> It’s easy to overlook how much advertising works. It works at a deeper level than you appear to describe. Agricultural society is a machine for converting increasing proportions of the Earth's biomass into larger numbers of biological humans. Culture is a set of practises for creating persons from that raw human material. Marketing is a means for business to capture culture for the purpose of creating persons with values overwhelmingly tilted towards goods-acquisition. The consequent positive feedback loop makes a marketing-driven culture incompatible with the continued existence of a healthy living planet. Marketing's victory over a sustainable culture was well-entrenched before the internet, which is essentially a (powerful) accelerant. We will slide faster into self-destruction with the internet than otherwise, but it's the same destination. A population of self-abnegating saints may have saved us from this, but beyond such fantasies, concentrating on the 'morality' of individuals in advertising is a misdirection. Once the machine was set in motion, the dismal result was probably inevitable.