7 ms·

What can the average person do about this system? It seems like it's only becoming more widespread.

by ikeyany 9y ago

sametmax 9y ago
Open a company. Try to avoid it. Understand why others do it. Then look for solutions.
- ikeyany 9y ago
  Others do it because it's cheaper than providing full-time salary+benefits. Average people don't really have the resources or connections to open a company.
  - manigandham 9y ago
    What resources or "connections" do you need? Thinking you need all these things before you can start is the biggest obstacle to actually starting.
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      Realistically, you need a couple thousand dollars at an absolute barest minimum to open a company and strike out on your own. Incorporation paperwork and filings, even for an LLC in an inexpensive state will be a few hundred, with an Inc generally more. Annual filing fees run $800 minimum in my state; that's if you do all the calculations and paperwork yourself. Then, you need adequate capitalization for the company (to avoid it being regarded as under-capitalized should the question of piercing the corporate veil ever come up). This must be used for working capital for inventory, WIP, raw materials, utilities, salary/living expenses, perhaps rent or transportation and needs to cover you between the time you start and when you are cashflow positive. You may need a license or permit from the town/city/AHJ to operate. Telling someone living paycheck to paycheck to "just go start a company" is fairly unrealistic I think.
      - mmphosis 9y ago
        I had vaguely heard that phrase "piercing the corporate veil" but had to look it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil A factor for courts to consider: Significant undercapitalization of the business entity (capitalization requirements vary based on industry, location, and specific company circumstances)
    - s73v3r_ 9y ago
      "What resources or "connections" do you need?" Money, for one. Time for two.
      - manigandham 9y ago
        We all have exactly the same amount of time every day. How you spend it is up to you. You can choose differently, especially if you're on HN discussing it in the first place.
        s73v3r_ 9y ago
        Someone who's working two jobs would disagree with you.
        manigandham 9y ago
        Disagree with what? That there are 24 hours in a day? They choose to spend that time working 2 jobs. I've done the same in the past. I've decided between buying dinner or getting gas to drive to work to earn enough to cover the commute in the first place. Eventually you make decisions to get you out of that life and into a better one. There's luck involved sure, but I absolutely reject any excuses as if it's completely out of your control.
        FranzFerdiNaN 9y ago
        I highly doubt you did those things you claim, because if you did you wouldn't say people "choose" to work two jobs and that it's just a matter of "deciding" to stop being poor.
        manigandham 9y ago
        You don't think choices matter in making your life better? This is just as sad as thinking that things can also change overnight. No you don't just stop being poor, you plan and get yourself out of it, over a decade if that's what it takes. Either way it's still up to you.
    - kirkules 9y ago
      This is nonsense. You have to know how to open a company, to have an idea for what it will do, have some way of building your product initially, etc. This knowledge (or the time to find it out on one's own) is itself a resource. Being able to take the risks inherent in opening a company is a resource that your average person might not have for many reasons, including needing immediate returns to support dependents or satisfy immediate and important expenses.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    There is more to it than that. And what's more, knowing things theoretically is very different that having to take a decision while you are exhausted, trying to take a decision before a big deadline, in the commute between work and the family, while your balance sheet is worrying you and you have social pressure from your workers, investors and colleagues. Also knowing they all will be affected by whatever you choose to do in many different ways, short and long term. That's why living the experience is important. It gives you perspective on the decision process, which is more than just numbers.
state_less 9y ago
Vote for candidates who will make healthcare a right and college affordable. While young people are bleeding out financially, rich people are getting a tax cut and they're running up the debt on the younger generation.
- nck4222 9y ago
  This is nitpicking a bit, but college is affordable, it's just very expensive. A side effect of the government guaranteeing student loans is that universities could charge basically whatever they want, knowing that students would still be able to pay it. It funded massive expansions, but instead of universities taking on the debt, students did.
  - state_less 9y ago
    What I had in mind was an education system where people generally felt more financially free and stable after they had completed their college education. In short, tuition wouldn't go up faster than the value the education provided and hopefully it'd go up a bit slower. In my view, the product hasn't improved at the rate of tuition increases and I'd just follow where the money went to know where the problem lies. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-r...
  - jnbiche 9y ago
    Sorry, if you have to take out 10- or 20-year loans to pay for even state colleges, college is NOT affordable. Unless you're working with a different definition of "affordable". I agree with you that government-guaranteed loans have had the paradoxical effect of being one of the primary contributing factors to increased tuition costs.
  - danans 9y ago
    > A side effect of the government guaranteeing student loans is that universities could charge basically whatever they want, This is only true of private for-profit universities, not private nonprofit universities nor public universities. For public universities, the main cause of rising tuition is state funding cuts: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m...
kiliantics 9y ago
Support businesses where workers are in unions or, better yet, support worker-owned co-operatives. Get involved in grassroots organisations in your community that are working on solutions to fight homelessness, poverty, gentrification, etc. and putting pressure on local government and businesses.

What can the average person do about this system? It seems like it's only becoming more widespread.

sametmax 9y ago

Open a company. Try to avoid it. Understand why others do it. Then look for solutions.

ikeyany 9y ago
Others do it because it's cheaper than providing full-time salary+benefits. Average people don't really have the resources or connections to open a company.
- manigandham 9y ago
  What resources or "connections" do you need? Thinking you need all these things before you can start is the biggest obstacle to actually starting.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    Realistically, you need a couple thousand dollars at an absolute barest minimum to open a company and strike out on your own. Incorporation paperwork and filings, even for an LLC in an inexpensive state will be a few hundred, with an Inc generally more. Annual filing fees run $800 minimum in my state; that's if you do all the calculations and paperwork yourself. Then, you need adequate capitalization for the company (to avoid it being regarded as under-capitalized should the question of piercing the corporate veil ever come up). This must be used for working capital for inventory, WIP, raw materials, utilities, salary/living expenses, perhaps rent or transportation and needs to cover you between the time you start and when you are cashflow positive. You may need a license or permit from the town/city/AHJ to operate. Telling someone living paycheck to paycheck to "just go start a company" is fairly unrealistic I think.
    - mmphosis 9y ago
      I had vaguely heard that phrase "piercing the corporate veil" but had to look it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil A factor for courts to consider: Significant undercapitalization of the business entity (capitalization requirements vary based on industry, location, and specific company circumstances)
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    "What resources or "connections" do you need?" Money, for one. Time for two.
    - manigandham 9y ago
      We all have exactly the same amount of time every day. How you spend it is up to you. You can choose differently, especially if you're on HN discussing it in the first place.
      - s73v3r_ 9y ago
        Someone who's working two jobs would disagree with you.
        manigandham 9y ago
        Disagree with what? That there are 24 hours in a day? They choose to spend that time working 2 jobs. I've done the same in the past. I've decided between buying dinner or getting gas to drive to work to earn enough to cover the commute in the first place. Eventually you make decisions to get you out of that life and into a better one. There's luck involved sure, but I absolutely reject any excuses as if it's completely out of your control.
        FranzFerdiNaN 9y ago
        I highly doubt you did those things you claim, because if you did you wouldn't say people "choose" to work two jobs and that it's just a matter of "deciding" to stop being poor.
        manigandham 9y ago
        You don't think choices matter in making your life better? This is just as sad as thinking that things can also change overnight. No you don't just stop being poor, you plan and get yourself out of it, over a decade if that's what it takes. Either way it's still up to you.
  - kirkules 9y ago
    This is nonsense. You have to know how to open a company, to have an idea for what it will do, have some way of building your product initially, etc. This knowledge (or the time to find it out on one's own) is itself a resource. Being able to take the risks inherent in opening a company is a resource that your average person might not have for many reasons, including needing immediate returns to support dependents or satisfy immediate and important expenses.
- sametmax 9y ago
  There is more to it than that. And what's more, knowing things theoretically is very different that having to take a decision while you are exhausted, trying to take a decision before a big deadline, in the commute between work and the family, while your balance sheet is worrying you and you have social pressure from your workers, investors and colleagues. Also knowing they all will be affected by whatever you choose to do in many different ways, short and long term. That's why living the experience is important. It gives you perspective on the decision process, which is more than just numbers.

state_less 9y ago

Vote for candidates who will make healthcare a right and college affordable. While young people are bleeding out financially, rich people are getting a tax cut and they're running up the debt on the younger generation.

nck4222 9y ago
This is nitpicking a bit, but college is affordable, it's just very expensive. A side effect of the government guaranteeing student loans is that universities could charge basically whatever they want, knowing that students would still be able to pay it. It funded massive expansions, but instead of universities taking on the debt, students did.
- state_less 9y ago
  What I had in mind was an education system where people generally felt more financially free and stable after they had completed their college education. In short, tuition wouldn't go up faster than the value the education provided and hopefully it'd go up a bit slower. In my view, the product hasn't improved at the rate of tuition increases and I'd just follow where the money went to know where the problem lies. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-r...
- jnbiche 9y ago
  Sorry, if you have to take out 10- or 20-year loans to pay for even state colleges, college is NOT affordable. Unless you're working with a different definition of "affordable". I agree with you that government-guaranteed loans have had the paradoxical effect of being one of the primary contributing factors to increased tuition costs.
- danans 9y ago
  > A side effect of the government guaranteeing student loans is that universities could charge basically whatever they want, This is only true of private for-profit universities, not private nonprofit universities nor public universities. For public universities, the main cause of rising tuition is state funding cuts: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m...

kiliantics 9y ago

Support businesses where workers are in unions or, better yet, support worker-owned co-operatives. Get involved in grassroots organisations in your community that are working on solutions to fight homelessness, poverty, gentrification, etc. and putting pressure on local government and businesses.