4 ms·

How would you feel about there being some sort of standardized credential certification, similar to a BAR or trade skill licensing, that proved a candidates tec

How would you feel about there being some sort of standardized credential certification, similar to a BAR or trade skill licensing, that proved a candidates technical chops ahead of time? Do you think this would help reduce the number of candidates that gets turned down during the initial screen? It seems to me like if there was some standard of proving technical skills, both parties could save a ton of time and go back to regular culture-fit style interviews. Of course, for the highest paying/most demanding jobs interviews would have to be tailored - but I don't really see why junior/mid level roles need interviews that last 4-8 hours on site plus any pre-on-site screening that needs to happen.

sgslo 9y ago
This exists in the form of the NCEES Professional Engineer exam (https://ncees.org/engineering/pe/software/ https://ncees.org/engineering/pe/software/). The exam specifications for software are here: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pd.... The PE exam is traditionally taken by people in the physical engineering disciplines; mechanical, structural, civil, and the like. By passing this exam you earn the right to use the 'Professional Engineer' title. Many (all?) permitting jurisdictions require non-trivial construction projects to be reviewed and approved by licensed PE's - this is not a joke certification. In the physical engineering world (structural, mechanical, civil) the PE exam is seen as a mark of a competent engineer, and usually comes along with a significant pay increase, even if the engineer is not using their license to review and approve projects. Seems to me like the PE exam would be an appropriate exam filter for software hiring.
- nabeards 9y ago
  Unfortunately, there are only two more chances to take this exam: next month or April of 2019.
- walshemj 9y ago
  It's an 80 q multiple choice exam FFS id expect more rigor and a viva for getting your CE as well as several years documented experience.
- twic 9y ago
  The trouble with this is that to have an exam to be an fooist, you have to have an agreed canonical body knowledge that constitutes the craft of fooing. Mechanical engineering has that because it's been going on for a very long time, and has had time to converge on such a canon, as have many other professional disciplines. But programming hasn't. This is why the few successful certifications in our industry are issued by a body which controls a specific canon - Cisco can certify you as a network associate on its switches, Microsoft can certify you as a solutions expert on its development platform, etc.
- ShannonAlther 9y ago
  Per the announcement on the linked page, NCEES will no longer be offering the Software Engineering exam after the final run in April 2019. It's been available for 5 years and looks like only 100 or so people are ever going to take it. https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam/ https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin...
cableshaft 9y ago
I think the Computer Science degree was supposed to basically be that, in theory. It obviously isn't in practice. I've overheard some other fields and the rigueur they go through is laughable in comparison. Heard a Marketing guy brought in for an interview in the next room go "I'm the right guy for the job!" basically, his only credentials being one previous job in the field and a Marketing degree, and my boss comes back and goes "Hmm, he seems very confident! Maybe we should hire him!" Meanwhile in our field, having 15+ years of direct experience means basically nothing other than they will set up a phone screen. The inevitable technical interview seems to be designed to rob us of our confidence as soon as possible, putting us on the defensive when we dare to get one question wrong because we couldn't remember or study for 100% of everything that exists throughout all of computer science and technology and our domain specialty, etc. Even my S.O., who's in proposal writing, only has to make sure she has her existing portfolio of past work updated and printed, but otherwise does very little to prepare for interviews. She doesn't try to study every possible question in that could possibly be asked about technical writing, marketing, graphic design, RFPs, sales, and whatever else her field touches. She generally only gets background and personality questions, that's about it. Yet she's directly responsible for her companies winning millions of dollars in business in her job, per proposal. The default of distrust in programmer abilities amongst companies is so bad I've been very tempted to leave the field at times, because I'm sick to death of going through the endless hoops and basically having to refresh my entire degree when I want to start looking for a new job (which I'm overdue to start doing again and I've been dragging my feet partly because I don't have the time right now to refresh the skills that haven't been needed at my job the past few years).
- walshemj 9y ago
  I agree really CS is at its heart a maths degree you would not expect some on with a degree in music theory to be able to work as pro musician with just that qualification. If some one had done an "engineering" degree an done a year working in industry you could expect some level of competency.

sgslo 9y ago

This exists in the form of the NCEES Professional Engineer exam (https://ncees.org/engineering/pe/software/ https://ncees.org/engineering/pe/software/). The exam specifications for software are here: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pd.... The PE exam is traditionally taken by people in the physical engineering disciplines; mechanical, structural, civil, and the like. By passing this exam you earn the right to use the 'Professional Engineer' title. Many (all?) permitting jurisdictions require non-trivial construction projects to be reviewed and approved by licensed PE's - this is not a joke certification. In the physical engineering world (structural, mechanical, civil) the PE exam is seen as a mark of a competent engineer, and usually comes along with a significant pay increase, even if the engineer is not using their license to review and approve projects. Seems to me like the PE exam would be an appropriate exam filter for software hiring.

nabeards 9y ago
Unfortunately, there are only two more chances to take this exam: next month or April of 2019.
walshemj 9y ago
It's an 80 q multiple choice exam FFS id expect more rigor and a viva for getting your CE as well as several years documented experience.
twic 9y ago
The trouble with this is that to have an exam to be an fooist, you have to have an agreed canonical body knowledge that constitutes the craft of fooing. Mechanical engineering has that because it's been going on for a very long time, and has had time to converge on such a canon, as have many other professional disciplines. But programming hasn't. This is why the few successful certifications in our industry are issued by a body which controls a specific canon - Cisco can certify you as a network associate on its switches, Microsoft can certify you as a solutions expert on its development platform, etc.
ShannonAlther 9y ago
Per the announcement on the linked page, NCEES will no longer be offering the Software Engineering exam after the final run in April 2019. It's been available for 5 years and looks like only 100 or so people are ever going to take it. https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam/ https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin...

cableshaft 9y ago

I think the Computer Science degree was supposed to basically be that, in theory. It obviously isn't in practice. I've overheard some other fields and the rigueur they go through is laughable in comparison. Heard a Marketing guy brought in for an interview in the next room go "I'm the right guy for the job!" basically, his only credentials being one previous job in the field and a Marketing degree, and my boss comes back and goes "Hmm, he seems very confident! Maybe we should hire him!" Meanwhile in our field, having 15+ years of direct experience means basically nothing other than they will set up a phone screen. The inevitable technical interview seems to be designed to rob us of our confidence as soon as possible, putting us on the defensive when we dare to get one question wrong because we couldn't remember or study for 100% of everything that exists throughout all of computer science and technology and our domain specialty, etc. Even my S.O., who's in proposal writing, only has to make sure she has her existing portfolio of past work updated and printed, but otherwise does very little to prepare for interviews. She doesn't try to study every possible question in that could possibly be asked about technical writing, marketing, graphic design, RFPs, sales, and whatever else her field touches. She generally only gets background and personality questions, that's about it. Yet she's directly responsible for her companies winning millions of dollars in business in her job, per proposal. The default of distrust in programmer abilities amongst companies is so bad I've been very tempted to leave the field at times, because I'm sick to death of going through the endless hoops and basically having to refresh my entire degree when I want to start looking for a new job (which I'm overdue to start doing again and I've been dragging my feet partly because I don't have the time right now to refresh the skills that haven't been needed at my job the past few years).

walshemj 9y ago
I agree really CS is at its heart a maths degree you would not expect some on with a degree in music theory to be able to work as pro musician with just that qualification. If some one had done an "engineering" degree an done a year working in industry you could expect some level of competency.