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They are still making new guns, take a look at this heinous thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90 The only possible

They are still making new guns, take a look at this heinous thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90 The only possible use for this is calling lots of people quickly at close range. I became aware of this model and cartridge when I used Google Maps to see how many gun shops are near Parkland High (3 within walking distance.) One of the shops specializes in these weapons. If the shooter could have afforded it, I would guess he would have bought this.

dustinmoorenet 9y ago
That gun was made in 1986, over 30 years ago. My whole point is we are seeing an industry that needs growth but has no where to go. If they can get lots of people angry and go buy guns, then they will, but after a certain point, the angry people have all the guns they could ever use. And anytime an old collector dies, their guns get put on the market. Pawn shops are full of guns.
tudelo 9y ago
Do you not think anyone recreationally shoots an FN P90?
- dpratt 9y ago
  Considering the fact that it's an incredibly expensive rifle and that a quick FBI crime stats search shows no usage of it, and I cannot remember ever hearing about it being used in a crime, there's a high likelihood that nearly every owner of it uses it recreationally. How many Porsche 911 Turbos or Audi R8s are used as getaway cars for bank robberies?
bmelton 9y ago
The bullpup format has been around since the early 1950s, and that particular form factor has been pretty normal since the 70s. I don't disagree with your point that arms manufacturers are still producing new models, but that isn't a terribly good illustration of 'new', especially since the arm you linked has been in production for ~30 years.
nordsieck 9y ago
> The only possible use for this [FN P90] is calling lots of people quickly at close range. This is absolutely not true. The point of the P90 is to be a compact carbine for troops in cramped quarters (think tank crew) with the capability to penetrate soft body armor. The way it achieves this is with a high speed, low caliber pistol round and full auto operation. Even then, it is only marginally effective. Take away the full auto part (civilian use) and I can't think of a single reason someone would use it, except that it looks "cool". To reiterate, the purpose of this gun is not to be effective at killing. It is to be as small as possible while still being marginally effective (in the military configuration).
novembermike 9y ago
Militaries have been moving away from that gun because it just isn't that lethal.
elsonrodriguez 9y ago
The effectiveness of the P90 has been called into question due to its cartridge, especially if the cartridge is used in the civilian semi-auto version of the P90, the PS90. I think the primary use for the military full-auto version is VIP duty, where the scenario would be exactly as you describe: killing lots of threats quickly in close proximity (supposedly with minimal collateral damage due to the design of the bullet). The primary use for the civilian PS90 is to show your friends how much you hate money by turning a questionable boutique round into noise.
yial 9y ago
The P90 in the US is largely restricted to military and LEO, there is a variant, the PS90 with lower capacity (30) and longer barrel that is available. the 5.7x28 round though isn't as effective in many ways at /killing/ people as other rounds. It's more intended to wound, and increase attrition. If you want to see something more affordable, that is probably equally as, if not more deadly, look at "AR" pistols (chambered in 5.56x45) instead of the P90. (Or PS90). Or, the SIG MPX, which while expensive, is also available. Though, it sounds from your comment, that you and I are on very different terms in opinion.
- al3xnull 9y ago
  Deleted mine as this is exactly what I was trying to say.
DFHippie 9y ago
I found this bit particularly chilling in the context of high school shooters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Ammunition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Ammunition
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  I don't understand - what about it is "chilling"? The 5.7x28mm would be a terrible choice for someone wanting to kill a large number of people. It's reason for existence is a tradeoff between the number of rounds one can effectively carry, armor penetration, and terminal performance. In short, it's designed for use in compact full-auto firearms - PDWs ("Person Defense Weapons"). That class of firearm has not been readily available in the US since 1934, and the P90 has never been available.
  - asmithmd1 9y ago
    This gave me pause: "The 5.7×28mm SS190 has a muzzle velocity of roughly 716 m/s (2,350 ft/s, Mach 2) and can penetrate the NATO CRISAT vest or a Level IIIA Kevlar vest at a range of 200m"
    - novembermike 9y ago
      I'm not sure what's scary there. It's got a low velocity for a lightweight round and penetrates light armor. As a trade off it doesn't have great terminal performance against people.
deleted 9y ago
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gnarcoregrizz 9y ago
released 1991... it's an almost 30 year old design. i remember first seeing the gun in the n64 game goldeneye. it looks like a close-range gun because it is (though they do make a longer-barrel version). however, it's for armored military targets. a 9mm round would be more effective against killing unarmored targets and has a longer range it's a pretty interesting gun though, not necessarily because of the bullpup design, but because of the type of round it shoots. the 5.7 round is pretty unique - it's small but ultra high velocity and was designed to penetrate light body armor but is not very good at killing. anyway, it's unlikely someone would use one of these to shoot up a school or whatever.... they are really expensive (and the ammo is also very expensive and rare). as far as a vegas style shooting, the 5.7 round isn't long range because of its small size - it's seriously a tiny bullet. moreover, i'm pretty sure the fn five-seven (basically the complementary pistol) is illegal to carry in most places because of the armor pen - cops don't like them
gnode 9y ago
I think this comment highlights exactly why legislation like the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was made. Anti-gun people generally don't know much about firearms, and can be appeased by the banning of cosmetic features, like folding stocks or rifles with a pistol grip, without notably affecting constitutional rights, as the potency of the weapon is not affected.
- asmithmd1 9y ago
  I am a former gun owner and think assault weapons legislation based on pistol grips doesn't accomplish anything. Yes, why not base legislation on the power of a weapon measured as, say, ft*lbs delivered in 20 seconds. A 50 round drum magazine on a Ruger 10/22 rifle - no problem. But on an AR-15 style rifle - not allowed.

dustinmoorenet 9y ago

That gun was made in 1986, over 30 years ago. My whole point is we are seeing an industry that needs growth but has no where to go. If they can get lots of people angry and go buy guns, then they will, but after a certain point, the angry people have all the guns they could ever use. And anytime an old collector dies, their guns get put on the market. Pawn shops are full of guns.

tudelo 9y ago

Do you not think anyone recreationally shoots an FN P90?

dpratt 9y ago
Considering the fact that it's an incredibly expensive rifle and that a quick FBI crime stats search shows no usage of it, and I cannot remember ever hearing about it being used in a crime, there's a high likelihood that nearly every owner of it uses it recreationally. How many Porsche 911 Turbos or Audi R8s are used as getaway cars for bank robberies?

bmelton 9y ago

The bullpup format has been around since the early 1950s, and that particular form factor has been pretty normal since the 70s. I don't disagree with your point that arms manufacturers are still producing new models, but that isn't a terribly good illustration of 'new', especially since the arm you linked has been in production for ~30 years.

nordsieck 9y ago

> The only possible use for this [FN P90] is calling lots of people quickly at close range. This is absolutely not true. The point of the P90 is to be a compact carbine for troops in cramped quarters (think tank crew) with the capability to penetrate soft body armor. The way it achieves this is with a high speed, low caliber pistol round and full auto operation. Even then, it is only marginally effective. Take away the full auto part (civilian use) and I can't think of a single reason someone would use it, except that it looks "cool". To reiterate, the purpose of this gun is not to be effective at killing. It is to be as small as possible while still being marginally effective (in the military configuration).

novembermike 9y ago

Militaries have been moving away from that gun because it just isn't that lethal.

elsonrodriguez 9y ago

The effectiveness of the P90 has been called into question due to its cartridge, especially if the cartridge is used in the civilian semi-auto version of the P90, the PS90. I think the primary use for the military full-auto version is VIP duty, where the scenario would be exactly as you describe: killing lots of threats quickly in close proximity (supposedly with minimal collateral damage due to the design of the bullet). The primary use for the civilian PS90 is to show your friends how much you hate money by turning a questionable boutique round into noise.

yial 9y ago

The P90 in the US is largely restricted to military and LEO, there is a variant, the PS90 with lower capacity (30) and longer barrel that is available. the 5.7x28 round though isn't as effective in many ways at /killing/ people as other rounds. It's more intended to wound, and increase attrition. If you want to see something more affordable, that is probably equally as, if not more deadly, look at "AR" pistols (chambered in 5.56x45) instead of the P90. (Or PS90). Or, the SIG MPX, which while expensive, is also available. Though, it sounds from your comment, that you and I are on very different terms in opinion.

al3xnull 9y ago
Deleted mine as this is exactly what I was trying to say.

DFHippie 9y ago

I found this bit particularly chilling in the context of high school shooters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Ammunition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Ammunition

LyndsySimon 9y ago
I don't understand - what about it is "chilling"? The 5.7x28mm would be a terrible choice for someone wanting to kill a large number of people. It's reason for existence is a tradeoff between the number of rounds one can effectively carry, armor penetration, and terminal performance. In short, it's designed for use in compact full-auto firearms - PDWs ("Person Defense Weapons"). That class of firearm has not been readily available in the US since 1934, and the P90 has never been available.
- asmithmd1 9y ago
  This gave me pause: "The 5.7×28mm SS190 has a muzzle velocity of roughly 716 m/s (2,350 ft/s, Mach 2) and can penetrate the NATO CRISAT vest or a Level IIIA Kevlar vest at a range of 200m"
  - novembermike 9y ago
    I'm not sure what's scary there. It's got a low velocity for a lightweight round and penetrates light armor. As a trade off it doesn't have great terminal performance against people.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

gnarcoregrizz 9y ago

released 1991... it's an almost 30 year old design. i remember first seeing the gun in the n64 game goldeneye. it looks like a close-range gun because it is (though they do make a longer-barrel version). however, it's for armored military targets. a 9mm round would be more effective against killing unarmored targets and has a longer range it's a pretty interesting gun though, not necessarily because of the bullpup design, but because of the type of round it shoots. the 5.7 round is pretty unique - it's small but ultra high velocity and was designed to penetrate light body armor but is not very good at killing. anyway, it's unlikely someone would use one of these to shoot up a school or whatever.... they are really expensive (and the ammo is also very expensive and rare). as far as a vegas style shooting, the 5.7 round isn't long range because of its small size - it's seriously a tiny bullet. moreover, i'm pretty sure the fn five-seven (basically the complementary pistol) is illegal to carry in most places because of the armor pen - cops don't like them

gnode 9y ago

I think this comment highlights exactly why legislation like the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was made. Anti-gun people generally don't know much about firearms, and can be appeased by the banning of cosmetic features, like folding stocks or rifles with a pistol grip, without notably affecting constitutional rights, as the potency of the weapon is not affected.

asmithmd1 9y ago
I am a former gun owner and think assault weapons legislation based on pistol grips doesn't accomplish anything. Yes, why not base legislation on the power of a weapon measured as, say, ft*lbs delivered in 20 seconds. A 50 round drum magazine on a Ruger 10/22 rifle - no problem. But on an AR-15 style rifle - not allowed.