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I think the gun industry has a problem with a product that doesn't really go bad and isn't able to expand much. Sure, bullets need to be replaced, but it is rea

I think the gun industry has a problem with a product that doesn't really go bad and isn't able to expand much. Sure, bullets need to be replaced, but it is really hard to make a gun that wears out quickly but that also is not a safety hazard for the shooter. At a certain point people will have enough guns that will occasionally be used. And the more guns you have, the less any one gun will wear out. Also, the hot guns on the market now are what? AR-15? That gun was developed in the 1960s. Sure there is new tech in accessories, but `the gun` can't really improve, because bigger and faster are limited by physics and laws.

banned1 9y ago
But you don't have to get another one because you need it. You get another one because you can. It's just like getting a new iPhone.
- usrusr 9y ago
  I'd say it is exactly not like the new iPhone: repeated private gun buying happens for completing a collection (which never happens), not for upgrading to the latest keynote filler feature. When IPhone enthusiasts keep their discarded phones in some drawer it's more a matter of laziness than of building an arsenal.
  - banned1 9y ago
    This is a fair point. I guess it would be more like a car enthusiast. Regardless, both cars and iPhones kill more people than guns, but those facts are not as convenient to some groups of people.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      > iPhones kill more people than guns How?
      - smsm42 9y ago
        I would guess the intent was to imply it's due to distracted driving (texting while driving or being on call and getting sufficiently distracted to cause an accident). Though laying it on the doorstep of iPhone specifically is not fair, nothing in iPhone makes it more prone to this than any other smartphone or even dumbphone model. I also don't know whether the statistics about how many fatal accidents were caused by distracted driving exists (it's kinda hard to ask a person who died in a car accident whether they were texting before or not...) or is reliable. But given the ubiquity of both driving and cellphones, I wouldn't be surprised if there existed some data pointing to the way the parent post suggested. I wouldn't also make any far-reaching conclusions from it as the issues involved are of quite different nature, and the data, as I pointed, is probably very dirty anyway.
        banned1 9y ago
        The facts are here: https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving I’m just trying to point out how silly some point of views are in the current state of national discussions. From the point of view of a 2A supporter, people are attempting to take away what is a RIGHT, while conveniently forgetting to address what is effectively a modern convenience (it is not a RIGHT to own an iPhone) that is factually more impactful on the presumed end goal. But it makes for better TV ratings and yet another polarizing dividing issue (which is not, as there are high school kids trying to advocate for guns in schools, whose voices are being drowned out by the media and the kids “on the other side” Imagine what it would be like if we had a march to take away the right to love the person you love, because some people who love like you do get more frequently sick of some disease.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
CNJ7654 9y ago
Not only would a gun that wears out quickly be a safety concern, it would also be extremely undesirable in a market where reliability and longevity matter more than almost anything else. It would be like trying to sell Jags to a group of people who only drive old Volvos
asmithmd1 9y ago
They are still making new guns, take a look at this heinous thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90 The only possible use for this is calling lots of people quickly at close range. I became aware of this model and cartridge when I used Google Maps to see how many gun shops are near Parkland High (3 within walking distance.) One of the shops specializes in these weapons. If the shooter could have afforded it, I would guess he would have bought this.
- dustinmoorenet 9y ago
  That gun was made in 1986, over 30 years ago. My whole point is we are seeing an industry that needs growth but has no where to go. If they can get lots of people angry and go buy guns, then they will, but after a certain point, the angry people have all the guns they could ever use. And anytime an old collector dies, their guns get put on the market. Pawn shops are full of guns.
- tudelo 9y ago
  Do you not think anyone recreationally shoots an FN P90?
  - dpratt 9y ago
    Considering the fact that it's an incredibly expensive rifle and that a quick FBI crime stats search shows no usage of it, and I cannot remember ever hearing about it being used in a crime, there's a high likelihood that nearly every owner of it uses it recreationally. How many Porsche 911 Turbos or Audi R8s are used as getaway cars for bank robberies?
- bmelton 9y ago
  The bullpup format has been around since the early 1950s, and that particular form factor has been pretty normal since the 70s. I don't disagree with your point that arms manufacturers are still producing new models, but that isn't a terribly good illustration of 'new', especially since the arm you linked has been in production for ~30 years.
- 9y ago
987412365 9y ago
These are complex machines with many moving parts, parts wear out all the time, there is a large after market for custom parts too... I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can chronicle the use of polymer frames in firearms, which maybe really caught on in the 1990s? Failure to improve on old designs seems like a good thing to me as a consumer, it's preferable to churn
- dustinmoorenet 9y ago
  The gun just doesn't fit as a product that can be made obsolete by future designs. Most guns were designed for the military to be field serviceable. Any attempt to make a cheap gun will just push consumers back to the established platforms. So the gun industry can't be run like other consumer industries, as we have seen with this bankruptcy. Investors came in thinking they could bleed an established brand of it's value, but evidently, consumers noticed and moved on.
michaelt 9y ago
Sure, but loads of businesses have this property. I don't need to replace my wrenches or my bed or my kitchen knives. Manufacturers stay in business by keeping their operations modest, so they can stay in business with the sales from people changing interests, population growth, and occasional replacements.
- dustinmoorenet 9y ago
  * Tools wear and break from constant daily use (only war gets that kind of use out of guns) * Beds frames can be made cheaply and if they break, you can still put your mattress on the floor (bullets don't work well if just thrown) * You need to sharpen knives pretty often, which is wearing them out, but it is true that good knives will last a good while. (But when was the last time you heard of a knife lobbying group pushing to prevent laws from limiting the knife industry's ability to sell product)
  - gnode 9y ago
    Plenty of tools are used very infrequently, and make up a large proportion of the market. Most households probably have a screwdriver, a wrench, a spade, etc. which rarely get used. Yet people keep buying them.
  - michaelt 9y ago
    Wrenches will break if you abuse them - but so will guns. I don't think either industry depends on such breakage to stay in business.
  - bmelton 9y ago
    Worth noting that while firearms are fairly durable goods, they do have a lot of wear when they're used regularly. Trigger pins can wiggle loose. Butt stocks can crack. Springs lose their springiness. Barrels wear down with normal use, and that wear is accelerated to corrosion if they aren't cared for properly. Receivers will crack if used enough. Sure. That gun in your uncle's safe will probably still shoot fine in 50 years (assuming it was cleaned before it was put away), but competition shooters replace their arms, or major parts in their guns every couple of years or so.

banned1 9y ago

But you don't have to get another one because you need it. You get another one because you can. It's just like getting a new iPhone.

usrusr 9y ago
I'd say it is exactly not like the new iPhone: repeated private gun buying happens for completing a collection (which never happens), not for upgrading to the latest keynote filler feature. When IPhone enthusiasts keep their discarded phones in some drawer it's more a matter of laziness than of building an arsenal.
- banned1 9y ago
  This is a fair point. I guess it would be more like a car enthusiast. Regardless, both cars and iPhones kill more people than guns, but those facts are not as convenient to some groups of people.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    > iPhones kill more people than guns How?
    - smsm42 9y ago
      I would guess the intent was to imply it's due to distracted driving (texting while driving or being on call and getting sufficiently distracted to cause an accident). Though laying it on the doorstep of iPhone specifically is not fair, nothing in iPhone makes it more prone to this than any other smartphone or even dumbphone model. I also don't know whether the statistics about how many fatal accidents were caused by distracted driving exists (it's kinda hard to ask a person who died in a car accident whether they were texting before or not...) or is reliable. But given the ubiquity of both driving and cellphones, I wouldn't be surprised if there existed some data pointing to the way the parent post suggested. I wouldn't also make any far-reaching conclusions from it as the issues involved are of quite different nature, and the data, as I pointed, is probably very dirty anyway.
      - banned1 9y ago
        The facts are here: https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving I’m just trying to point out how silly some point of views are in the current state of national discussions. From the point of view of a 2A supporter, people are attempting to take away what is a RIGHT, while conveniently forgetting to address what is effectively a modern convenience (it is not a RIGHT to own an iPhone) that is factually more impactful on the presumed end goal. But it makes for better TV ratings and yet another polarizing dividing issue (which is not, as there are high school kids trying to advocate for guns in schools, whose voices are being drowned out by the media and the kids “on the other side” Imagine what it would be like if we had a march to take away the right to love the person you love, because some people who love like you do get more frequently sick of some disease.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]

CNJ7654 9y ago

Not only would a gun that wears out quickly be a safety concern, it would also be extremely undesirable in a market where reliability and longevity matter more than almost anything else. It would be like trying to sell Jags to a group of people who only drive old Volvos

asmithmd1 9y ago

They are still making new guns, take a look at this heinous thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90 The only possible use for this is calling lots of people quickly at close range. I became aware of this model and cartridge when I used Google Maps to see how many gun shops are near Parkland High (3 within walking distance.) One of the shops specializes in these weapons. If the shooter could have afforded it, I would guess he would have bought this.

dustinmoorenet 9y ago
That gun was made in 1986, over 30 years ago. My whole point is we are seeing an industry that needs growth but has no where to go. If they can get lots of people angry and go buy guns, then they will, but after a certain point, the angry people have all the guns they could ever use. And anytime an old collector dies, their guns get put on the market. Pawn shops are full of guns.
tudelo 9y ago
Do you not think anyone recreationally shoots an FN P90?
- dpratt 9y ago
  Considering the fact that it's an incredibly expensive rifle and that a quick FBI crime stats search shows no usage of it, and I cannot remember ever hearing about it being used in a crime, there's a high likelihood that nearly every owner of it uses it recreationally. How many Porsche 911 Turbos or Audi R8s are used as getaway cars for bank robberies?
bmelton 9y ago
The bullpup format has been around since the early 1950s, and that particular form factor has been pretty normal since the 70s. I don't disagree with your point that arms manufacturers are still producing new models, but that isn't a terribly good illustration of 'new', especially since the arm you linked has been in production for ~30 years.
9y ago

987412365 9y ago

These are complex machines with many moving parts, parts wear out all the time, there is a large after market for custom parts too... I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can chronicle the use of polymer frames in firearms, which maybe really caught on in the 1990s? Failure to improve on old designs seems like a good thing to me as a consumer, it's preferable to churn

dustinmoorenet 9y ago
The gun just doesn't fit as a product that can be made obsolete by future designs. Most guns were designed for the military to be field serviceable. Any attempt to make a cheap gun will just push consumers back to the established platforms. So the gun industry can't be run like other consumer industries, as we have seen with this bankruptcy. Investors came in thinking they could bleed an established brand of it's value, but evidently, consumers noticed and moved on.

michaelt 9y ago

Sure, but loads of businesses have this property. I don't need to replace my wrenches or my bed or my kitchen knives. Manufacturers stay in business by keeping their operations modest, so they can stay in business with the sales from people changing interests, population growth, and occasional replacements.

dustinmoorenet 9y ago
* Tools wear and break from constant daily use (only war gets that kind of use out of guns) * Beds frames can be made cheaply and if they break, you can still put your mattress on the floor (bullets don't work well if just thrown) * You need to sharpen knives pretty often, which is wearing them out, but it is true that good knives will last a good while. (But when was the last time you heard of a knife lobbying group pushing to prevent laws from limiting the knife industry's ability to sell product)
- gnode 9y ago
  Plenty of tools are used very infrequently, and make up a large proportion of the market. Most households probably have a screwdriver, a wrench, a spade, etc. which rarely get used. Yet people keep buying them.
- michaelt 9y ago
  Wrenches will break if you abuse them - but so will guns. I don't think either industry depends on such breakage to stay in business.
- bmelton 9y ago
  Worth noting that while firearms are fairly durable goods, they do have a lot of wear when they're used regularly. Trigger pins can wiggle loose. Butt stocks can crack. Springs lose their springiness. Barrels wear down with normal use, and that wear is accelerated to corrosion if they aren't cared for properly. Receivers will crack if used enough. Sure. That gun in your uncle's safe will probably still shoot fine in 50 years (assuming it was cleaned before it was put away), but competition shooters replace their arms, or major parts in their guns every couple of years or so.