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I think that's the problem. Everyone wants talented developers. Many companies can no longer afford to hire less talented developers who many have been able to

by il 16y ago

I think that's the problem. Everyone wants talented developers. Many companies can no longer afford to hire less talented developers who many have been able to get a job in a booming economy. And I'm not mentioning the millions of liberal arts majors who used to be quietly employed but now are finding that many companies simply don't want or need them. That's why I think the recession and unemployment will persist for a very long time- many of those lost jobs just aren't coming back.

smokinn 16y ago
I think you hit the nail on the head. Everyone wants talented developers because companies typically pay them only incrementally more than lousy developers even though they're vastly more productive. Perhaps the reason people are having trouble finding jobs and companies are having trouble finding people is because both sides are realizing this but companies are still offering the same terms which the talented developers are rejecting either by seeking out the companies offering more pay, the companies offering better projects and teams or by rejecting the system entirely and starting their own companies where they can be the ones that reap the rewards of their efforts rather than the often disproportionately paid executive staff.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  And as the most talented developers increasingly realize they get shafted pay-wise working at most companies, compared to running their own business, more of them will start their own, stay indie, become an ISV, a consultant, co-founder, etc.
muhfuhkuh 16y ago
"the millions of liberal arts majors who used to be quietly employed but now are finding that many companies simply don't want or need them" Come on. I know the general disdain for liberal arts amongst this crowd, but couldn't you instead pick on, oh I don't know, those who never even went to college or even finished high school? The unemployment rate for those with college degrees _of any kind_ is 4.5%. Among non-degree holders over 9%, and among non-diploma holders over 12%. Yet, you're assuming it's all those philosophy majors that make up the bulk of the unemployed? Case in point, I'm an English major who has been working for a major mid-sized public software company for over 8 years now making about 40k above the median US household income, not including bonuses or stock options. Believe me when I say I'm not one of the luckier ones, as I have colleagues in the same field (technical publication writing, course developers, or technology journalists) that make US$110000 or more depending on the region and experience level. Employers look to a degree - _any_ degree - for proof that a candidate has discipline and is a generalist who can adapt to fast-moving actions and targets all under tight deadlines; a person who, through creativity _and_ technical prowess, can solve business problems and work with clients, partners, and fellow associates. That seriously can't _just_ be CS majors. In fact, what makes you think you're safe, if _FTA_ it says you'll have to bring more to the table than just a CS degree with some C++ or Java skills? You're just as vulnerable if you're an average coder than if you're an average desktop support jockey or technical writer.
- il 16y ago
  I'm actually a liberal arts graduate myself(Psychology), and the reason I went the startup route is that it was easier than looking for a job with my degree. As for the unemployment rate, you come on. Quoting that 4.5% figure is intellectually dishonest when discussing the value of a degree NOW, in the current economy. People who were lucky to get a job years before the current recession are mostly doing OK and surviving layoffs,etc. For RECENT college graduates, the employment picture is far bleaker. The truth is, employers are not hiring at nearly the rate they were before. I've seen the unemployment rate for recent college graduates(aged 22-25) cited at anywhere from 10% to 30%. 80% of college graduates finish school without a job offer in hand. If it's so easy to get a job with a liberal arts degree, I would love to refer you to dozens of my friends who are desperate for any job at this point and can't find ANYTHING. I'm sure you'll be able to help them out.
  - binomial 16y ago
    Heck, finding any engineering job now as a graduate with no experience is very difficult. I would know, having just graduated as a mechanical engineer.
  - muhfuhkuh 16y ago
    My point still stands. You've got a MUCH better chance with a degree than without one, and if you're seeing new grad numbers that are depressing, take a gander at the non-degree holder numbers sometime. As for your friends, I never said it wasn't going to be easy, I just said they'd have a better chance than your claim of lib arts grads being the bulk of the persona non grata in the workforce. There is just WAY too many non degree holders that make up the bulk of the jobless for it to be remotely true.
Tamerlin 16y ago
"I think that's the problem. Everyone wants talented developers. Many companies can no longer afford to hire less talented developers who many have been able to get a job in a booming economy." They're also trying to take advantage of the economic situation to lowball those talented developers -- many of whom are leaving the industry or starting their own companies, or in some cases (like me) both. Where I am now, we've hired a few folks that the tech team wasn't very keen on, because they were the least useless candidates we could find, not because they're talented. The media are conveniently ignoring the fact that a surprisingly large fraction of the people who are unable to find tech jobs weren't qualified for them in the first place, and only got hired because the employers were desperate. Unfortunately, the ones who were never qualified in the first place don't know that (or do but refuse to admit it), and the employers can't tell them apart anyway, so everyone ends up getting the short end of the stick.

by il 16y ago

smokinn 16y ago

I think you hit the nail on the head. Everyone wants talented developers because companies typically pay them only incrementally more than lousy developers even though they're vastly more productive. Perhaps the reason people are having trouble finding jobs and companies are having trouble finding people is because both sides are realizing this but companies are still offering the same terms which the talented developers are rejecting either by seeking out the companies offering more pay, the companies offering better projects and teams or by rejecting the system entirely and starting their own companies where they can be the ones that reap the rewards of their efforts rather than the often disproportionately paid executive staff.

mkramlich 16y ago
And as the most talented developers increasingly realize they get shafted pay-wise working at most companies, compared to running their own business, more of them will start their own, stay indie, become an ISV, a consultant, co-founder, etc.

muhfuhkuh 16y ago

"the millions of liberal arts majors who used to be quietly employed but now are finding that many companies simply don't want or need them" Come on. I know the general disdain for liberal arts amongst this crowd, but couldn't you instead pick on, oh I don't know, those who never even went to college or even finished high school? The unemployment rate for those with college degrees _of any kind_ is 4.5%. Among non-degree holders over 9%, and among non-diploma holders over 12%. Yet, you're assuming it's all those philosophy majors that make up the bulk of the unemployed? Case in point, I'm an English major who has been working for a major mid-sized public software company for over 8 years now making about 40k above the median US household income, not including bonuses or stock options. Believe me when I say I'm not one of the luckier ones, as I have colleagues in the same field (technical publication writing, course developers, or technology journalists) that make US$110000 or more depending on the region and experience level. Employers look to a degree - _any_ degree - for proof that a candidate has discipline and is a generalist who can adapt to fast-moving actions and targets all under tight deadlines; a person who, through creativity _and_ technical prowess, can solve business problems and work with clients, partners, and fellow associates. That seriously can't _just_ be CS majors. In fact, what makes you think you're safe, if _FTA_ it says you'll have to bring more to the table than just a CS degree with some C++ or Java skills? You're just as vulnerable if you're an average coder than if you're an average desktop support jockey or technical writer.

il 16y ago
I'm actually a liberal arts graduate myself(Psychology), and the reason I went the startup route is that it was easier than looking for a job with my degree. As for the unemployment rate, you come on. Quoting that 4.5% figure is intellectually dishonest when discussing the value of a degree NOW, in the current economy. People who were lucky to get a job years before the current recession are mostly doing OK and surviving layoffs,etc. For RECENT college graduates, the employment picture is far bleaker. The truth is, employers are not hiring at nearly the rate they were before. I've seen the unemployment rate for recent college graduates(aged 22-25) cited at anywhere from 10% to 30%. 80% of college graduates finish school without a job offer in hand. If it's so easy to get a job with a liberal arts degree, I would love to refer you to dozens of my friends who are desperate for any job at this point and can't find ANYTHING. I'm sure you'll be able to help them out.
- binomial 16y ago
  Heck, finding any engineering job now as a graduate with no experience is very difficult. I would know, having just graduated as a mechanical engineer.
- muhfuhkuh 16y ago
  My point still stands. You've got a MUCH better chance with a degree than without one, and if you're seeing new grad numbers that are depressing, take a gander at the non-degree holder numbers sometime. As for your friends, I never said it wasn't going to be easy, I just said they'd have a better chance than your claim of lib arts grads being the bulk of the persona non grata in the workforce. There is just WAY too many non degree holders that make up the bulk of the jobless for it to be remotely true.

Tamerlin 16y ago

"I think that's the problem. Everyone wants talented developers. Many companies can no longer afford to hire less talented developers who many have been able to get a job in a booming economy." They're also trying to take advantage of the economic situation to lowball those talented developers -- many of whom are leaving the industry or starting their own companies, or in some cases (like me) both. Where I am now, we've hired a few folks that the tech team wasn't very keen on, because they were the least useless candidates we could find, not because they're talented. The media are conveniently ignoring the fact that a surprisingly large fraction of the people who are unable to find tech jobs weren't qualified for them in the first place, and only got hired because the employers were desperate. Unfortunately, the ones who were never qualified in the first place don't know that (or do but refuse to admit it), and the employers can't tell them apart anyway, so everyone ends up getting the short end of the stick.