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As an ex-employee, I feel much more confident in Facebook's processes than the company you're describing. Facebook would have no problem terminating people who

As an ex-employee, I feel much more confident in Facebook's processes than the company you're describing. Facebook would have no problem terminating people who do what you're describing.

mehrdadn 9y ago
As an ex-employee could you please also confirm whether or not the average employee is able to access user data, and what kinds of permissions (if any) this requires?
- renaudg 9y ago
  Another ex-FB employee here. I can't believe this is even a thing people are wondering about. Of course not the average employee can't access user data, it's an immediate firing offense.
  - mehrdadn 9y ago
    > Another ex-FB employee here. I can't believe this is even a thing people are wondering about. Of course not the average employee can't access user data, it's an immediate firing offense. Ironically, you're undermining your own point. The fact that they would be fired afterwards in no way contradicts the notion that they could access such data, and in fact suggests they can (hence the firing policy).
    - renaudg 9y ago
      Are you genuinely asking a question you would like to know the truthful answer to, or are you just interested in confirming the strong preexisting bias on display in each of your comments on this story ? You asked about the "average employee" having access to user data, and the answer is unequivocally "no", with both technical and disciplinary safeguards. There are only a few roles (moderation) who can access the relevant tools, and while engineers may technically have programmatic access (how would you expect things to work if nobody did ?), this is thoroughly logged and you'd better have an ironclad justification not to get fired on the spot.
      - mehrdadn 9y ago
        No, I'm interested in knowing the truthful answer. It's just that I've received plenty of seemingly truthful responses (both here and elsewhere, e.g. [1]) that seem quite consistent with the notion that an average-employee(-turned-malicious) would be capable of accessing user data, punishments and all notwithstanding. > You asked about the "average employee" having access to user data, and the answer is unequivocally "no", with both technical and disciplinary safeguards. (a) How do you know, and (b) so what is your explanation of stories like [1]? They're just hoaxes? > and while engineers may technically have programmatic access (how would you expect things to work if nobody did ?) Again you are wording this in quite a vague, lawyer-y manner, which again raises my eyebrows. "May" as in "might", or as in "do"? And "engineers" as in what fraction of them? There is a lot of wiggle room between "nobody" and "all engineers". It's quite strange that I can't get a straightforward, crystal-clear denial to a non-weasel-worded claim from you who seem to be confidently contesting what I'm saying. Please don't keep muddying the waters. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675664
        evgen 9y ago
        Regarding your question about a dev setting up a test server and accessing live data, that hole has been closed for years. There is some data that an average employee just cannot get to. For some data a dev can access it but the pattern of access and amount of data accessed will be audited and anomalies will raise an alarm. As for why no one is giving you a clear answer it is because there is no reason for anyone to tell some random person deep details about security policy and procedure. The people building the internal controls and defenses are smarter than you, they know what needs to be protected and are rather devious about thinking up attack scenarios and possible paths of compromise, and eventually get tired of repeating the same answers. Want to know more? Too bad.
        mehrdadn 9y ago
        > As for why no one is giving you a clear answer it is because there is no reason for anyone to tell some random person deep details about security policy and procedure. Where did I ask for "deep details about security policy and procedure"? > Want to know more? Too bad. No, but thanks. > There is some data that an average employee just cannot get to. "Some data" means nothing. I'm sure this is true in many, many companies, ranging from the most competent to the most incompetent. > For some data a dev can access it but the pattern of access and amount of data accessed will be audited and anomalies will raise an alarm. This is yet again consistent with what I've said.
    - evincarofautumn 9y ago
      Yet another ex-FB here. When I was there I think it was possible for engineers to access pretty much anything programmatically, although the vast majority never have any reason to go near the systems that would allow them to do so. During onboarding we were basically told “If you look at any data that’s not yours, assume you will be fired”. Everything is logged, so if you might have looked at anything you shouldn’t have, it’s flagged and you’re audited; if you didn’t have permission (from a user and/or manager) and a valid business reason, then (we were told during onboarding) you’re likely to be fired and possibly sued.
      - mehrdadn 9y ago
        Thank you for the response. Question: if you (assumed average Facebook engineer for this discussion) observe a bug (normal severity, not something obviously critical and not something conversely trivial) with a particular profile that you cannot otherwise reproduce, and it is determined that addressing it would involve looking at the user's private data, then I assume that would be a valid business reason to do so. Now, is it possible to do this without explicitly (re-)obtaining the user's permission for this incident, or is it assumed the user has already agreed to this somewhere in the ToS or otherwise? And if this is possible, then what stands in the way of someone opportunistically finding bugs that provide convenient covers for looking at user's private data?
        TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
        FB’s internal security protocols are irrelevant. The reality is that huge amounts of personal data were harvested by third parties through app permissions - apparently with FB’s knowledge and support. No one needs back door hacks to get into a vault when the front door is wide open.
        mehrdadn 9y ago
        Maybe it's irrelevant to you but I'm sure it's mighty relevant to some other users whether they are notified before employees dig into their private data to fix random bugs.
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    I've read that, for a time, "view anyone's profile" was an advertised perk of being a Facebook employee (maybe just a wink-wink, nudge-nudge thing in an interview, I have no firsthand experience). I'm sure they don't do that anymore, but how much have they really tightened up the ship after having a culture like that?
robrenaud 9y ago
Imagine you are the Egyptian government. You want to squash a social media fueled rebellion, lead by some anonymous person. How hard is it to get one of your bright and loyal minds hired by Facebook? How much data could such a person exfiltrate before getting fired? The 'We will log your access and fire you' line of defense prevents nothing from someone who only has a job for the purpose of moving data out.
- taurath 9y ago
  They don’t fire you, they arrest you. And then they find out who you work for.
  - gruturo 9y ago
    Doesn't matter. At the first hint of trouble you escaped back to your country, protected by the government which had sent you there in the first place, and now the rebels have been murdered thanks to the data you got out.
- underwater 9y ago
  Batch scrapping or drip feeding data via a monitored internal tool? I doubt they’d get much out at all. It’s inherently a low bandwidth and very obvious channel. Someone in that position would be much better off building a back door into the system. But if they could also build a backdoor into iCloud, or scrape Gmail data from within Google. I assume that Facebook has mechanisms to check that new hires (especially foreign nationals) are legitimate.
specialist 9y ago
If data at rest is unencrypted, I don't believe you. Sorry. Someone, somewhere is peeking at the naughty bits. This is the best resource I've found for protecting such things: Translucent Databases: Confusion, Misdirection, Randomness, Sharing, Authentication And Steganography To Defend Privacy http://a.co/eLgQACC http://a.co/eLgQACC Maybe differential privacy stuff will supersede, compliment these techniques. I'm keeping an open mind.

As an ex-employee, I feel much more confident in Facebook's processes than the company you're describing. Facebook would have no problem terminating people who do what you're describing.

mehrdadn 9y ago

As an ex-employee could you please also confirm whether or not the average employee is able to access user data, and what kinds of permissions (if any) this requires?

renaudg 9y ago
Another ex-FB employee here. I can't believe this is even a thing people are wondering about. Of course not the average employee can't access user data, it's an immediate firing offense.
- mehrdadn 9y ago
  > Another ex-FB employee here. I can't believe this is even a thing people are wondering about. Of course not the average employee can't access user data, it's an immediate firing offense. Ironically, you're undermining your own point. The fact that they would be fired afterwards in no way contradicts the notion that they could access such data, and in fact suggests they can (hence the firing policy).
  - renaudg 9y ago
    Are you genuinely asking a question you would like to know the truthful answer to, or are you just interested in confirming the strong preexisting bias on display in each of your comments on this story ? You asked about the "average employee" having access to user data, and the answer is unequivocally "no", with both technical and disciplinary safeguards. There are only a few roles (moderation) who can access the relevant tools, and while engineers may technically have programmatic access (how would you expect things to work if nobody did ?), this is thoroughly logged and you'd better have an ironclad justification not to get fired on the spot.
    - mehrdadn 9y ago
      No, I'm interested in knowing the truthful answer. It's just that I've received plenty of seemingly truthful responses (both here and elsewhere, e.g. [1]) that seem quite consistent with the notion that an average-employee(-turned-malicious) would be capable of accessing user data, punishments and all notwithstanding. > You asked about the "average employee" having access to user data, and the answer is unequivocally "no", with both technical and disciplinary safeguards. (a) How do you know, and (b) so what is your explanation of stories like [1]? They're just hoaxes? > and while engineers may technically have programmatic access (how would you expect things to work if nobody did ?) Again you are wording this in quite a vague, lawyer-y manner, which again raises my eyebrows. "May" as in "might", or as in "do"? And "engineers" as in what fraction of them? There is a lot of wiggle room between "nobody" and "all engineers". It's quite strange that I can't get a straightforward, crystal-clear denial to a non-weasel-worded claim from you who seem to be confidently contesting what I'm saying. Please don't keep muddying the waters. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675664
      - evgen 9y ago
        Regarding your question about a dev setting up a test server and accessing live data, that hole has been closed for years. There is some data that an average employee just cannot get to. For some data a dev can access it but the pattern of access and amount of data accessed will be audited and anomalies will raise an alarm. As for why no one is giving you a clear answer it is because there is no reason for anyone to tell some random person deep details about security policy and procedure. The people building the internal controls and defenses are smarter than you, they know what needs to be protected and are rather devious about thinking up attack scenarios and possible paths of compromise, and eventually get tired of repeating the same answers. Want to know more? Too bad.
        mehrdadn 9y ago
        > As for why no one is giving you a clear answer it is because there is no reason for anyone to tell some random person deep details about security policy and procedure. Where did I ask for "deep details about security policy and procedure"? > Want to know more? Too bad. No, but thanks. > There is some data that an average employee just cannot get to. "Some data" means nothing. I'm sure this is true in many, many companies, ranging from the most competent to the most incompetent. > For some data a dev can access it but the pattern of access and amount of data accessed will be audited and anomalies will raise an alarm. This is yet again consistent with what I've said.
  - evincarofautumn 9y ago
    Yet another ex-FB here. When I was there I think it was possible for engineers to access pretty much anything programmatically, although the vast majority never have any reason to go near the systems that would allow them to do so. During onboarding we were basically told “If you look at any data that’s not yours, assume you will be fired”. Everything is logged, so if you might have looked at anything you shouldn’t have, it’s flagged and you’re audited; if you didn’t have permission (from a user and/or manager) and a valid business reason, then (we were told during onboarding) you’re likely to be fired and possibly sued.
    - mehrdadn 9y ago
      Thank you for the response. Question: if you (assumed average Facebook engineer for this discussion) observe a bug (normal severity, not something obviously critical and not something conversely trivial) with a particular profile that you cannot otherwise reproduce, and it is determined that addressing it would involve looking at the user's private data, then I assume that would be a valid business reason to do so. Now, is it possible to do this without explicitly (re-)obtaining the user's permission for this incident, or is it assumed the user has already agreed to this somewhere in the ToS or otherwise? And if this is possible, then what stands in the way of someone opportunistically finding bugs that provide convenient covers for looking at user's private data?
      - TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
        FB’s internal security protocols are irrelevant. The reality is that huge amounts of personal data were harvested by third parties through app permissions - apparently with FB’s knowledge and support. No one needs back door hacks to get into a vault when the front door is wide open.
        mehrdadn 9y ago
        Maybe it's irrelevant to you but I'm sure it's mighty relevant to some other users whether they are notified before employees dig into their private data to fix random bugs.
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  I've read that, for a time, "view anyone's profile" was an advertised perk of being a Facebook employee (maybe just a wink-wink, nudge-nudge thing in an interview, I have no firsthand experience). I'm sure they don't do that anymore, but how much have they really tightened up the ship after having a culture like that?

robrenaud 9y ago

Imagine you are the Egyptian government. You want to squash a social media fueled rebellion, lead by some anonymous person. How hard is it to get one of your bright and loyal minds hired by Facebook? How much data could such a person exfiltrate before getting fired? The 'We will log your access and fire you' line of defense prevents nothing from someone who only has a job for the purpose of moving data out.

taurath 9y ago
They don’t fire you, they arrest you. And then they find out who you work for.
- gruturo 9y ago
  Doesn't matter. At the first hint of trouble you escaped back to your country, protected by the government which had sent you there in the first place, and now the rebels have been murdered thanks to the data you got out.
underwater 9y ago
Batch scrapping or drip feeding data via a monitored internal tool? I doubt they’d get much out at all. It’s inherently a low bandwidth and very obvious channel. Someone in that position would be much better off building a back door into the system. But if they could also build a backdoor into iCloud, or scrape Gmail data from within Google. I assume that Facebook has mechanisms to check that new hires (especially foreign nationals) are legitimate.

specialist 9y ago

If data at rest is unencrypted, I don't believe you. Sorry. Someone, somewhere is peeking at the naughty bits. This is the best resource I've found for protecting such things: Translucent Databases: Confusion, Misdirection, Randomness, Sharing, Authentication And Steganography To Defend Privacy http://a.co/eLgQACC http://a.co/eLgQACC Maybe differential privacy stuff will supersede, compliment these techniques. I'm keeping an open mind.