5 ms·

I respect Facebook and their engineering chops as much as the next person, they are truly world class programmers, but how the holy hell is everyone daydreaming

by tbrock 9y ago

I respect Facebook and their engineering chops as much as the next person, they are truly world class programmers, but how the holy hell is everyone daydreaming that they don’t work for an advertising company? You sell and use people’s data to get money: this is the business plan. Full stop. Connecting people can definitely be lucrative and useful in other ways but facebooks particular implementation is impression based not action/outcome based.

swyx 9y ago
not too long ago the emphasis was on whether Facebook is a -media- or a -tech- company. Media companies have more responsibility to censor content then tech companies do. Interesting how quickly the narrative changes.
ramphastidae 9y ago
Because they’re paid well. Very well. Everyone I know that works at FB for 2+ years is making 300-500k (including stock) and already owns or is on their way to purchasing a home. That makes it a lot easier to ignore the reality of FB. Meanwhile chumps like me that consider the ethics of their employer will be renting forever. I honestly don’t blame them.
- bamboozled 9y ago
  Agreed, a lot of cognitive dissonance happening on campus.
  - woolvalley 9y ago
    Maybe what the article says it is and what reality is a bit different?
- JohnJamesRambo 9y ago
  You can only sell your soul once, the second time there is nothing left.
- tbrock 9y ago
  To be clear, I'm not criticizing or holier than thou —- I'd work there in a heartbeat without complaint and love it. The part I don't get is that it seems everyone who does work there is in shock and awe that this is going on. SHOCKED! It's comical to the point of parody.
  - sah2ed 9y ago
    It's a cognitive bias that kicks in when your monthly salary is involved, as succinctly noted in 1935 by Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
- softawre 9y ago
  > already owns or is on their way to purchasing a home This is insane. I get why some people want to live in the bay area, but I'll take my 4k square feet home in the great neighboorhood with the award winning schools for 300k.
debacle 9y ago
I respect Google and their engineering chops as much as the next person, they are truly world class programmers, but how the holy hell is everyone daydreaming that they don’t work for an advertising company? You sell and use people’s data to get money: this is the business plan. Are people working there really so nieve(sic) as to believe that this is surprising?
- KMag 9y ago
  Former Googler here. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Googlers understand they work for an advertising company with a gigantic and generally well-run software "engineering" department. I don't mean that in any derogatory sense. Well-regulated advertising is important in helping consumers make informed purchasing decisions.
  - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
    >Well-regulated advertising is important in helping consumers make informed purchasing decisions. Do you think the adtech industy is "well-regulated"?
    - KMag 9y ago
      I think most consumer electronics are advertised reasonably, and it's fairly easy for consumers to evaluate advertising claims there. On the other hand, health products / dietary supplements seem woefully under-regulated, especially since the layperson seems to have great difficulty in evaluating health claims. It seems crazy that dietary supplement and drug advertising are treated so very differently. So, I think in some areas we need better advertising regulation, but not across the board. More importantly, my point is that I'm not holding my nose up at my former colleagues. Without the second half of my post, the first half could be read as having a very judgemental tone.
  - legostormtroopr 9y ago
    If advertising were about "helping consumers make informed purchasing decisions" there would never be an attractive model, a wild animal, singing, dancing or any other trope in an ad ever again. They would be a list of superior features of, and only of, the product read in clear, plain terms.
et-al 9y ago
The money probably helps, especially given the Bay Area cost-of-living. The FB employees I've met have been fine with explaining away the consequences of their actions with "oh it's just a job", "that's not my team", or "the technology is really interesting". And as an idealist, I'll invoke Goodwin's Law depending on our relationship.
- gaius 9y ago
  “Hans, are we the baddies?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU
anonytrary 9y ago
Sheryl Sandberg is under the impression that Facebook, quote, "does not sell your data": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1CTHFEcoJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1CTHFEcoJc She is either wrong, or lying, or has her own ideas of what "selling your data" means.
- seattle_spring 9y ago
  They don't sell your data. Your actions and data are used to put you into categories, and advertisers pay to show their ads to people associated with those categories. No one is given direct access to your data. This strategy is not unique to Facebook-- it's how Google, Yahoo, and other major advertising-based tech companies work.
  - anonytrary 9y ago
    At the end of the day, your data goes into a black box, gets jumbled around and then sold. To suggest this is different than "selling your data" is pedantic and misleading. For Sheryl to deny this "selling of data" reveals her concern with words and reception over real actions and effects.
    - renaudg 9y ago
      No, it's not a pedantic distinction at all and it's actually the "selling people's data" narrative that's misleading, not the other way round. Facebook does not sell user data, it sells targeted ad space which is the exact opposite business model. Their competitive edge in this business purely relies on being the only entity in the world who can target so well, precisely because they hold onto that data like a treasure.
      - blub 9y ago
        Their competitive edge is quite dull then, because all FB apps had access to the user data. FB PR needs to work on another excuse now... "don't sell your data" is a joke after the CA scandal.
  - 9y ago

by tbrock 9y ago

swyx 9y ago

not too long ago the emphasis was on whether Facebook is a -media- or a -tech- company. Media companies have more responsibility to censor content then tech companies do. Interesting how quickly the narrative changes.

ramphastidae 9y ago

Because they’re paid well. Very well. Everyone I know that works at FB for 2+ years is making 300-500k (including stock) and already owns or is on their way to purchasing a home. That makes it a lot easier to ignore the reality of FB. Meanwhile chumps like me that consider the ethics of their employer will be renting forever. I honestly don’t blame them.

bamboozled 9y ago
Agreed, a lot of cognitive dissonance happening on campus.
- woolvalley 9y ago
  Maybe what the article says it is and what reality is a bit different?
JohnJamesRambo 9y ago
You can only sell your soul once, the second time there is nothing left.
tbrock 9y ago
To be clear, I'm not criticizing or holier than thou —- I'd work there in a heartbeat without complaint and love it. The part I don't get is that it seems everyone who does work there is in shock and awe that this is going on. SHOCKED! It's comical to the point of parody.
- sah2ed 9y ago
  It's a cognitive bias that kicks in when your monthly salary is involved, as succinctly noted in 1935 by Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
softawre 9y ago
> already owns or is on their way to purchasing a home This is insane. I get why some people want to live in the bay area, but I'll take my 4k square feet home in the great neighboorhood with the award winning schools for 300k.

debacle 9y ago

I respect Google and their engineering chops as much as the next person, they are truly world class programmers, but how the holy hell is everyone daydreaming that they don’t work for an advertising company? You sell and use people’s data to get money: this is the business plan. Are people working there really so nieve(sic) as to believe that this is surprising?

KMag 9y ago
Former Googler here. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Googlers understand they work for an advertising company with a gigantic and generally well-run software "engineering" department. I don't mean that in any derogatory sense. Well-regulated advertising is important in helping consumers make informed purchasing decisions.
- wu-ikkyu 9y ago
  >Well-regulated advertising is important in helping consumers make informed purchasing decisions. Do you think the adtech industy is "well-regulated"?
  - KMag 9y ago
    I think most consumer electronics are advertised reasonably, and it's fairly easy for consumers to evaluate advertising claims there. On the other hand, health products / dietary supplements seem woefully under-regulated, especially since the layperson seems to have great difficulty in evaluating health claims. It seems crazy that dietary supplement and drug advertising are treated so very differently. So, I think in some areas we need better advertising regulation, but not across the board. More importantly, my point is that I'm not holding my nose up at my former colleagues. Without the second half of my post, the first half could be read as having a very judgemental tone.
- legostormtroopr 9y ago
  If advertising were about "helping consumers make informed purchasing decisions" there would never be an attractive model, a wild animal, singing, dancing or any other trope in an ad ever again. They would be a list of superior features of, and only of, the product read in clear, plain terms.

et-al 9y ago

The money probably helps, especially given the Bay Area cost-of-living. The FB employees I've met have been fine with explaining away the consequences of their actions with "oh it's just a job", "that's not my team", or "the technology is really interesting". And as an idealist, I'll invoke Goodwin's Law depending on our relationship.

gaius 9y ago
“Hans, are we the baddies?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

anonytrary 9y ago

Sheryl Sandberg is under the impression that Facebook, quote, "does not sell your data": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1CTHFEcoJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1CTHFEcoJc She is either wrong, or lying, or has her own ideas of what "selling your data" means.

seattle_spring 9y ago
They don't sell your data. Your actions and data are used to put you into categories, and advertisers pay to show their ads to people associated with those categories. No one is given direct access to your data. This strategy is not unique to Facebook-- it's how Google, Yahoo, and other major advertising-based tech companies work.
- anonytrary 9y ago
  At the end of the day, your data goes into a black box, gets jumbled around and then sold. To suggest this is different than "selling your data" is pedantic and misleading. For Sheryl to deny this "selling of data" reveals her concern with words and reception over real actions and effects.
  - renaudg 9y ago
    No, it's not a pedantic distinction at all and it's actually the "selling people's data" narrative that's misleading, not the other way round. Facebook does not sell user data, it sells targeted ad space which is the exact opposite business model. Their competitive edge in this business purely relies on being the only entity in the world who can target so well, precisely because they hold onto that data like a treasure.
    - blub 9y ago
      Their competitive edge is quite dull then, because all FB apps had access to the user data. FB PR needs to work on another excuse now... "don't sell your data" is a joke after the CA scandal.
- 9y ago