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Collapse of civilization is always pictured as something dreadful, that might not always be universally true, for it also brings change: the slaves of Rome were

Collapse of civilization is always pictured as something dreadful, that might not always be universally true, for it also brings change: the slaves of Rome were finally free, the collapse of the Soviet Union also brought freedom (that was really good for those who could take advantage of it), the non German subjects of the third Reich were very happy when that one came down! Somehow the big narrative that is embedded in the civ games is missing these details completely. Also collapse of a state does not mean that civilization is gone completely. Maybe exploring collapse may be fun too. (At least it would teach an agility that could come quite handy for an individual). However building such a game would be really hard, as it would go against the patterns of historical discourse, there is probably less data to build on. On the other hand we had a lot of instances during the past century when the established order of things did come to a crashing halt...

Arbalest 9y ago
I am reminded of the issue of the local maximum. Pretty much sounds like the "collapse", which as you say is never complete, is the action required to get out of a convergent state of society/being
astrodust 9y ago
When Europe "collapsed" because of the plague the rest of the world didn't really notice. Today things are more inter-connected so it could domino in ways it never could before.
- MichaelMoser123 9y ago
  The world took notice in the long run. The survivors of the plague had it good though, salaries were up and the institution of serfdom was finished in western Europe, the stage was set for rapid modernization. Also westerners got some level of immunity to these germs so that people in far off places would just die off when they came around.
  - astrodust 9y ago
    The Plague was never really a problem outside of Europe because it required particular conditions. Other diseases did spread, but those didn't have the same apocalyptic effect on society. When smallpox and other diseases rampaged across the New World the rest of the world didn't notice. It was geographically and demographically contained. That's not the case now where things like SARS can go world-wide in a matter of weeks. A failing society could cause considerably more damage today than at any other time in history.
    - MichaelMoser123 9y ago
      No problem outside Europe? Asia is outside of Europe. Now the plague caused the decline of the Mongol empire - the first trans continental, almost global trading network, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Mongolica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Mongolica
      - astrodust 9y ago
        Maybe it was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back but it doesn't seem to be the deciding factor in that decline. Like the Roman empire before, the fractured bits of the Mongol empire survived for hundreds of years after.

Arbalest 9y ago

I am reminded of the issue of the local maximum. Pretty much sounds like the "collapse", which as you say is never complete, is the action required to get out of a convergent state of society/being

astrodust 9y ago

When Europe "collapsed" because of the plague the rest of the world didn't really notice. Today things are more inter-connected so it could domino in ways it never could before.

MichaelMoser123 9y ago
The world took notice in the long run. The survivors of the plague had it good though, salaries were up and the institution of serfdom was finished in western Europe, the stage was set for rapid modernization. Also westerners got some level of immunity to these germs so that people in far off places would just die off when they came around.
- astrodust 9y ago
  The Plague was never really a problem outside of Europe because it required particular conditions. Other diseases did spread, but those didn't have the same apocalyptic effect on society. When smallpox and other diseases rampaged across the New World the rest of the world didn't notice. It was geographically and demographically contained. That's not the case now where things like SARS can go world-wide in a matter of weeks. A failing society could cause considerably more damage today than at any other time in history.
  - MichaelMoser123 9y ago
    No problem outside Europe? Asia is outside of Europe. Now the plague caused the decline of the Mongol empire - the first trans continental, almost global trading network, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Mongolica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Mongolica
    - astrodust 9y ago
      Maybe it was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back but it doesn't seem to be the deciding factor in that decline. Like the Roman empire before, the fractured bits of the Mongol empire survived for hundreds of years after.