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Your statement about new shiny smartphone being a heat loss implies that there's some objective measure of what's worthy of resources and what's not. I don't th

Your statement about new shiny smartphone being a heat loss implies that there's some objective measure of what's worthy of resources and what's not. I don't think so. Life has no meaning, and there's no inherent value in anything. How people decide to spend resources that they have is their responsibility. Thankfully, money, together with open markets is an extremely effective mechanism of conciliating millions of such decisions. So, if millions of people decide that they would rather buy a new phone than, I don't know, help starving children in Africa – it's their responsibility. Blaming it on advertisement is a view that presents these millions of people as helpless children, who are so easy to manipulate that they can't even be responsible for their own decisions – which is very far from the truth.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago
which is very far from the truth I'm not sure it is, it's hardly as if adverts are just lists of facts about the product you are buying. All that changed with Edwards Bernays. When I see an advert on television that is telling me I need to buy a specific model of car to be a good father then I know I'm seeing propaganda.
- golergka 9y ago
  Your comment is true but it doesn't contradict my point in any way. Of course it's propaganda. But you're still an adult who is fully responsible for your actions. Also, people are much more rational than economists give them credit for. You don't need a new car for transportation. But you may need a psychological boost of self-respect. You may need to feel like those people from the commercial. You may need social status, validation, a lot of other tangible things that economists and software engineers are so quick to label as "stupid"; and buying the car for those reasons is often a very rational and wise thing to do, even if you don't admit the real reasons to yourself.
  - pygy_ 9y ago
    > But you're still an adult who is fully responsible for your actions. That's what the law says, and maybe what you believe but there is a lot of scientific evidence to the contrary. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational and https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Robert-Cialdini/dp/006124189X https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Rober... for an oversight of (some of) the ways you can be manipulated.
    - golergka 9y ago
      Yes, of course I can be manipulated. By the way, "manipulation" is a very loosely defined term: you're trying to change my mind right now, which is also a form of manipulation. It doesn't contradict the fact that my decisions are still my responsibility.
      - pygy_ 9y ago
        Responsibility is a juridic notion. Those decisions are not necessarily rational in the sense that economic theory defines economic actors that always act for their best interest. Another great resource on the topic is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow Most of our decisions are not the result of conscious, deliberate thoughts. Our deliberate selves can be manipulated, but that's our instinct that's the most prone to manipulation. Advertising is designed to make us act for the benefit of corporations, not necessarily our own benefit. It is nowadays built on the science that I've linked to, and they pour billions of dollars into it because it's so damn effective. Speaking of phones, status symbols may have been important for survival 10,000 years ago, but they aren't anymore (or much less), and yet we still seek them, and corporations take advantage of that instinct to milk us by selling more and more useless, shiny junk. The ego boost is short-lived though because the next best thing is always around the corner, keeping us on the chronic dissatisfaction treadmill.
        golergka 9y ago
        Responsibility is the basis of any moral judgement. And I find repeating myself again: I agree with most of what you wrote, but it doesn't contradict my point in any way.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago

which is very far from the truth I'm not sure it is, it's hardly as if adverts are just lists of facts about the product you are buying. All that changed with Edwards Bernays. When I see an advert on television that is telling me I need to buy a specific model of car to be a good father then I know I'm seeing propaganda.

golergka 9y ago
Your comment is true but it doesn't contradict my point in any way. Of course it's propaganda. But you're still an adult who is fully responsible for your actions. Also, people are much more rational than economists give them credit for. You don't need a new car for transportation. But you may need a psychological boost of self-respect. You may need to feel like those people from the commercial. You may need social status, validation, a lot of other tangible things that economists and software engineers are so quick to label as "stupid"; and buying the car for those reasons is often a very rational and wise thing to do, even if you don't admit the real reasons to yourself.
- pygy_ 9y ago
  > But you're still an adult who is fully responsible for your actions. That's what the law says, and maybe what you believe but there is a lot of scientific evidence to the contrary. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational and https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Robert-Cialdini/dp/006124189X https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Rober... for an oversight of (some of) the ways you can be manipulated.
  - golergka 9y ago
    Yes, of course I can be manipulated. By the way, "manipulation" is a very loosely defined term: you're trying to change my mind right now, which is also a form of manipulation. It doesn't contradict the fact that my decisions are still my responsibility.
    - pygy_ 9y ago
      Responsibility is a juridic notion. Those decisions are not necessarily rational in the sense that economic theory defines economic actors that always act for their best interest. Another great resource on the topic is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow Most of our decisions are not the result of conscious, deliberate thoughts. Our deliberate selves can be manipulated, but that's our instinct that's the most prone to manipulation. Advertising is designed to make us act for the benefit of corporations, not necessarily our own benefit. It is nowadays built on the science that I've linked to, and they pour billions of dollars into it because it's so damn effective. Speaking of phones, status symbols may have been important for survival 10,000 years ago, but they aren't anymore (or much less), and yet we still seek them, and corporations take advantage of that instinct to milk us by selling more and more useless, shiny junk. The ego boost is short-lived though because the next best thing is always around the corner, keeping us on the chronic dissatisfaction treadmill.
      - golergka 9y ago
        Responsibility is the basis of any moral judgement. And I find repeating myself again: I agree with most of what you wrote, but it doesn't contradict my point in any way.