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Uber Agrees on Southeast Asian Sale to Grab

138 points by cinquemb 9y ago

sarreph 9y ago
I remember coming to SE Asia a couple of years ago, and finding it amazing how I could order an Uber with the same app / account that I do in the West (albeit only from major, supported cities). However, returning recently, for me (at leat anecdotally) it’s almost infeasible to order an Uber here now due to their low driver rates. Grab seems to be everywhere, but with rates similar to Uber, I do wonder what went wrong. I was thinking only the other day that it feels like Uber let this opportunity slip through their fingers. Both platforms are vastly cheaper than their western services ($1 for over a mile). They also both offer ‘moto’/motorcycle hire for one-person rides which is extremely convenient... I’m wondering why we don’t have similar services in the built-up western cities such as London or New York.
- mantas 9y ago
  Are you saying that Uber charges about the same as Grab, but in Grab drivers get paid more? Even though Uber is burning a shitload of investors cash..
  - itake 9y ago
    I find Uber tends to be a bit cheaper than Grab in Vietnam (give or take the weekly discounts). My one trip to Malaysia, I found Grab to be the cheaper choice. source: living in Vietnam for ~1 year.
  - philliphaydon 9y ago
    Grab drivers make more money than Uber. Or so they do in Singapore.
- freddie_mercury 9y ago
  (I live in SE Asia.) Grab did a better job of having an offering that fit the local markets, whereas Uber tried to fit its US model here. It has since adapted but Grab has always executed faster and better. Grab showed up front pricing first. Grab allowed paying by cash. GrabPay has been (somewhat) adopted by other companies.
  - Eridrus 9y ago
    > Grab allowed paying by cash. So how does that work? Do drivers get a statement at the end of the month on how much they owe Grab? Is it itemized by ride, or juts aggregated?
    - NiekvdMaas 9y ago
      It's actually the other way around, they prepay Grab some package and make it back + the driver commission over time.
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        That's a great model to deal with the fact that cash isn't going away anytime soon.
  - thisrod 9y ago
    There's another thing I heard lots of people saying in KL a few weeks ago. Uber had developed a reputation for employing crooks—drivers who would accept a fare and claim the payment, but simply not show up, and so on—and not doing anything when they were reported. Grab was supposed to be a lot stricter with its drivers, and their drivers were much more trusted.
    - freddie_mercury 9y ago
      I dunno. I don't live in KL. Uber is fine where I live. Grab is also fine.
- coconut_crab 9y ago
  Local here, in my country Grab tried to abide by the local law while Uber is acting like they are above the government. Taxation for example, Grab has no problem paying tax, while the local branch of Uber said that they are only a 'marketing company' for Uber BV located in Holland (a well known tax haven) so they don't have to pay any corporation income tax at all. IANAL but even if that is legal, it still doesn't sit right with me or the local government. oh and the marketing problem too, they changed their uniform and colour them for a few times while Grab just sticks with green. I just don't feel they have a clear strategy for anything at all.
  - woobar 9y ago
    Aren't they all just burn investors money? Hence no income and no corporate income tax to pay?
    - coconut_crab 9y ago
      It is impossible get their real profit so they are taxed 2% on their revenue. Oh and I forgot, when the authority requested them to hold a meeting on how should the taxation be, they didn't even bother to reply! That's like asking for trouble.
- capex 9y ago
  As a tourist in Kuala lumpur last year, I had better experiences with Grab trips. They accepted cash, drivers seemed to be happier and fare was slightly cheaper.
  - blfr 9y ago
    Uber must be feeling the pressure because they also started accepting cash in some cities.
- dirtylowprofile 9y ago
  I live in SEA and Grab is way more cheaper than Uber. Uber is just so damn expensive with the same service of Grab.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> SoftBank Group Corp., a major backer of Grab’s and Uber’s as well as China’s Didi Chuxing, has pushed consolidation to improve the profitability of a global ride-hailing business that bleeds billions of dollars a year The anticompetitive effects of common ownership [1] have been hypothesized in respect of the public markets: "A lot of the way we traditionally think about corporate governance does not fully account for the fact that most investors are diversified. This comes up a lot in mergers and acquisitions. Company A wants to buy Company B. If they combine, they will have cost savings worth $X, and the question is how much of $X goes to Company B shareholders in the form of merger premium and how much of it goes to Company A shareholders. If you are a diversified investor holding a proportional amount of both companies' shares, you don't care at all. You just want the deal done. But because corporate law, at least in the M&A context, gives directors a duty to maximize value for their shareholders, Company B will negotiate hard to get as much of the premium as possible. Money will be spent on bankers and lawyers. Company A might be pushed to raise a lot of debt to pay more, making the benefits of the deal riskier (for Company A). And Company B might ultimately just say no to a deal because it doesn't like how the benefits are split, denying those benefits to diversified shareholders. By maximizing value for its shareholders, considered as its shareholders, Company B might actually be hurting those same shareholders, considering their entire portfolios." [2] One doesn't find Fidelity going out and saying "you two should merge so you can raise prices on consumers." But I guess that's okay if you're Softbank? [1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2427345 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2427345 [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-04-16/should-mutual-funds-be-illegal- https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-04-16/should-mu...
- baybal2 9y ago
  >"you two should merge so you can raise prices on consumers." This is pretty much it. A generic strategy for most of "megafunds"
  - WJW 9y ago
    Given that prices are now so low that the service is unprofitable, it does not seem all that irresponsible for the firms' owners to want prices raised?
bocahrokok 9y ago
And now grab vs gojek
fatjokes 9y ago
As someone who recently had a bad experience with Didi in China, I really wish there would be at least two competitors for each industry at any given point.
- JulienSchmidt 9y ago
  China still also has Dida Pinche. But I agree, before Uber left the Chinese market, there was more pressure to be customer friendly. And the regular promos (with ridiculous amounts of free rides) where also nice from a customer perspective.
sfifs 9y ago
In pushing for these sales, SoftBank appears to be valuing Uber and other cab hailing business as taxi businesses and aiming to improve profitability by reducing competition rather than as a precursor to gain marketshare for some kind of driverless taxi fleets. The insiders don't seem to subscribe to the breathless enthusiasm of online commentators who have long considered Uber's current model as merely a stepping store to driverless fleets.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Because that's all they are. Uber and its competitors provided a valuable service in demonstrating what a modern taxi service ought to look like (at least from a customer perspective). But now that they've raised that bar, they don't provide a lot of added value other than as a worldwide integrated brand (in the case of Uber specifically). Whenever door-to-door self-driving eventually arrives, it won't be in a timeframe that's remotely interesting to current investors in these services.
  - notahacker 9y ago
    And that's particularly true of South East Asia, where human driver costs are negligible and differences in road networks and driver behaviour create all sorts of interesting new challenges for self driving software even if it handles California near perfectly.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      Those are good points. If I have trouble imagining self-driving vehicles navigating Boston at rush hour, it truly boggles the mind to imagine them making it around Bangkok, Jakarta, or KL. I'm an experienced driver and I wouldn't want to. And, as you say, while a lot of people probably overestimate the driver cost as a percentage of a taxi ride in developed Western countries, it truly is almost negligible in Southeast Asia. It's very common for people to have full-time drivers.
      - tomkit 9y ago
paulbjensen 9y ago
I'd love to see Uber's income statement - they've grown fast but are they profitable yet, and how much of their revenue comes from subsidised rides?
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  "Uber said it lost $1.1 billion in the last three months of 2017 on revenue of $11.05 billion — results that reflect a steady improvement in the company’s financial position, with revenues growing and losses narrowing. In the preceding quarter, Uber lost $1.46 billion on revenue of $9.7 billion. Uber said it lost $1.1 billion in the last three months of 2017 on revenue of $11.05 billion — results that reflect a steady improvement in the company’s financial position, with revenues growing and losses narrowing. In the preceding quarter, Uber lost $1.46 billion on revenue of $9.7 billion. ... Based on a financial earnings criteria excluding expenses like stock-based compensation — a significant portion of how Uber rewards its employees — the company said it lost $475 million in the fourth quarter compared with a loss of $607 million in the prior three-months period." https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/business/uber-earnings-ipo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/business/uber-earnings-ip...
  - paulbjensen 9y ago
    Thanks. Starting to wonder how much cash in the bank they have.
nicolas_t 9y ago
Pity, the repeated discounts from grab and uber making trips almost free will quickly be a thing of the past... I like it when inventors subsidize my life style in an effort to get market share. Hope gojek can become a competitor in the markets I go to so that those discounts start again.
woadwarrior01 9y ago
I get a sense of deja vu with this deal, and previously the Didi deal in China. It's very reminiscent of how Yahoo ended up holding a large chunk of Alibaba stocks.
- skinnymuch 9y ago
  Also Uber merging/making a joint venture with Yandex in Russia and a few local countries where they got 1/3 of the company.
no1youknowz 9y ago
Not surprised. After watching this video [0], my conclusion was that there are no actual rides sharing companies in the world. There is only SoftBank. As an aside, Lei does some awesome videos on technology and definitely worth a subscription! [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfFX9iKZAj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfFX9iKZAj0
- trisimix 9y ago
  https://medium.com/@steve.yegge/why-i-left-google-to-join-grab-86dfffc0be84 https://medium.com/@steve.yegge/why-i-left-google-to-join-gr... That guy would disagree I think.
  - ktta 9y ago
    Grab is also partly funded by SoftBank
  - htormey 9y ago
    “In August 2017, Grab raised US$2.5 billion in series G funding from Softbank, Didi, and Toyota.[47” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grab_(company) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grab_(company)
  - kimjongman 9y ago
    Go-jek will win in Indonesia
  - mylons 9y ago
    "Didi and Softbank and countless others are funneling money into the key players." from the blog you linked. did you read it?
- tomkit 9y ago
  When the creator of that video uses hyperbole throughout, one should know to look elsewhere for research/analysis (hopefully primary sources).
- htormey 9y ago
  Have they invested in Lyft?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
aprao 9y ago
Anyone think Uber vs. Ola will go down the same path?
- skinnymuch 9y ago
  Eventually perhaps. There are differences for now. Namely this battle is mostly or only in India. And Uber has around half of the market share. With SoftBank owning 30% of Ola and 15% of Uber, I’m sure they’ll want consolidation.
samfisher83 9y ago
Here is a list of company softbank has invested in: Ola, Grab, Didi Chuxing, 99. https://qz.com/1187144/softbank-not-uber-is-the-real-king-of-ride-hailing/ https://qz.com/1187144/softbank-not-uber-is-the-real-king-of... Softbank/Saudi Arabia is going to control the global taxi market.
kjsingh 9y ago
So is Grab going to take over Uber in India?
- skinnymuch 9y ago
  I don’t think there’s any chance of that. Uber is only getting 27.5% of Grab. Uber has roughly 50% of India’s market. Grab has basically none of it.
rajacombinator 9y ago
So what is Uber’s thesis these days? Global taxi monopoly is dead. Self driving cars is dead. Time to dump this dog in an IPO and hit up the buyer of last resort ... America’s 401ks.
grizzles 9y ago
Anyone know how this works in practice? Is Grab somehow able to rebrand the Uber app with Google/Apple's blessing? I'm really curious.
- cinquemb 9y ago
  Uber sent out an email for people to download Grab, since it will no longer work in SE Asia after the 8th of April[0]. Personally, so far, I'm not impressed with grab's software and epayments infrastructure in Indonesia, compared to uber where I can use my card and pay for any of my wifes/friends usage without having to think about things like topping up or buying credits (though to be fair, a lot of platforms in Indonesia [maybe even SE Asia] seem to have the same situation regarding payments, with worse software). Maybe this will change, but right now it feels like a demotion. Here's to hoping a decentralized platform for ride hailing can come into existence in the future and remove the reliance on SoftBank's will to unify the market on their terms. [0] https://help.uber.com/h/1e6cfc45-10da-416c-a7a3-d13f75505c34 https://help.uber.com/h/1e6cfc45-10da-416c-a7a3-d13f75505c34

138 points by cinquemb 9y ago

I remember coming to SE Asia a couple of years ago, and finding it amazing how I could order an Uber with the same app / account that I do in the West (albeit only from major, supported cities). However, returning recently, for me (at leat anecdotally) it’s almost infeasible to order an Uber here now due to their low driver rates. Grab seems to be everywhere, but with rates similar to Uber, I do wonder what went wrong. I was thinking only the other day that it feels like Uber let this opportunity slip through their fingers. Both platforms are vastly cheaper than their western services ($1 for over a mile). They also both offer ‘moto’/motorcycle hire for one-person rides which is extremely convenient... I’m wondering why we don’t have similar services in the built-up western cities such as London or New York.

mantas 9y ago
Are you saying that Uber charges about the same as Grab, but in Grab drivers get paid more? Even though Uber is burning a shitload of investors cash..
- itake 9y ago
  I find Uber tends to be a bit cheaper than Grab in Vietnam (give or take the weekly discounts). My one trip to Malaysia, I found Grab to be the cheaper choice. source: living in Vietnam for ~1 year.
- philliphaydon 9y ago
  Grab drivers make more money than Uber. Or so they do in Singapore.
freddie_mercury 9y ago
(I live in SE Asia.) Grab did a better job of having an offering that fit the local markets, whereas Uber tried to fit its US model here. It has since adapted but Grab has always executed faster and better. Grab showed up front pricing first. Grab allowed paying by cash. GrabPay has been (somewhat) adopted by other companies.
- Eridrus 9y ago
  > Grab allowed paying by cash. So how does that work? Do drivers get a statement at the end of the month on how much they owe Grab? Is it itemized by ride, or juts aggregated?
  - NiekvdMaas 9y ago
    It's actually the other way around, they prepay Grab some package and make it back + the driver commission over time.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      That's a great model to deal with the fact that cash isn't going away anytime soon.
- thisrod 9y ago
  There's another thing I heard lots of people saying in KL a few weeks ago. Uber had developed a reputation for employing crooks—drivers who would accept a fare and claim the payment, but simply not show up, and so on—and not doing anything when they were reported. Grab was supposed to be a lot stricter with its drivers, and their drivers were much more trusted.
  - freddie_mercury 9y ago
    I dunno. I don't live in KL. Uber is fine where I live. Grab is also fine.
coconut_crab 9y ago
Local here, in my country Grab tried to abide by the local law while Uber is acting like they are above the government. Taxation for example, Grab has no problem paying tax, while the local branch of Uber said that they are only a 'marketing company' for Uber BV located in Holland (a well known tax haven) so they don't have to pay any corporation income tax at all. IANAL but even if that is legal, it still doesn't sit right with me or the local government. oh and the marketing problem too, they changed their uniform and colour them for a few times while Grab just sticks with green. I just don't feel they have a clear strategy for anything at all.
- woobar 9y ago
  Aren't they all just burn investors money? Hence no income and no corporate income tax to pay?
  - coconut_crab 9y ago
    It is impossible get their real profit so they are taxed 2% on their revenue. Oh and I forgot, when the authority requested them to hold a meeting on how should the taxation be, they didn't even bother to reply! That's like asking for trouble.
capex 9y ago
As a tourist in Kuala lumpur last year, I had better experiences with Grab trips. They accepted cash, drivers seemed to be happier and fare was slightly cheaper.
- blfr 9y ago
  Uber must be feeling the pressure because they also started accepting cash in some cities.
dirtylowprofile 9y ago
I live in SEA and Grab is way more cheaper than Uber. Uber is just so damn expensive with the same service of Grab.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> SoftBank Group Corp., a major backer of Grab’s and Uber’s as well as China’s Didi Chuxing, has pushed consolidation to improve the profitability of a global ride-hailing business that bleeds billions of dollars a year The anticompetitive effects of common ownership [1] have been hypothesized in respect of the public markets: "A lot of the way we traditionally think about corporate governance does not fully account for the fact that most investors are diversified. This comes up a lot in mergers and acquisitions. Company A wants to buy Company B. If they combine, they will have cost savings worth $X, and the question is how much of $X goes to Company B shareholders in the form of merger premium and how much of it goes to Company A shareholders. If you are a diversified investor holding a proportional amount of both companies' shares, you don't care at all. You just want the deal done. But because corporate law, at least in the M&A context, gives directors a duty to maximize value for their shareholders, Company B will negotiate hard to get as much of the premium as possible. Money will be spent on bankers and lawyers. Company A might be pushed to raise a lot of debt to pay more, making the benefits of the deal riskier (for Company A). And Company B might ultimately just say no to a deal because it doesn't like how the benefits are split, denying those benefits to diversified shareholders. By maximizing value for its shareholders, considered as its shareholders, Company B might actually be hurting those same shareholders, considering their entire portfolios." [2] One doesn't find Fidelity going out and saying "you two should merge so you can raise prices on consumers." But I guess that's okay if you're Softbank? [1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2427345 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2427345 [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-04-16/should-mutual-funds-be-illegal- https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-04-16/should-mu...

baybal2 9y ago
>"you two should merge so you can raise prices on consumers." This is pretty much it. A generic strategy for most of "megafunds"
- WJW 9y ago
  Given that prices are now so low that the service is unprofitable, it does not seem all that irresponsible for the firms' owners to want prices raised?

bocahrokok 9y ago

And now grab vs gojek

fatjokes 9y ago

As someone who recently had a bad experience with Didi in China, I really wish there would be at least two competitors for each industry at any given point.

JulienSchmidt 9y ago
China still also has Dida Pinche. But I agree, before Uber left the Chinese market, there was more pressure to be customer friendly. And the regular promos (with ridiculous amounts of free rides) where also nice from a customer perspective.

sfifs 9y ago

In pushing for these sales, SoftBank appears to be valuing Uber and other cab hailing business as taxi businesses and aiming to improve profitability by reducing competition rather than as a precursor to gain marketshare for some kind of driverless taxi fleets. The insiders don't seem to subscribe to the breathless enthusiasm of online commentators who have long considered Uber's current model as merely a stepping store to driverless fleets.

ghaff 9y ago
Because that's all they are. Uber and its competitors provided a valuable service in demonstrating what a modern taxi service ought to look like (at least from a customer perspective). But now that they've raised that bar, they don't provide a lot of added value other than as a worldwide integrated brand (in the case of Uber specifically). Whenever door-to-door self-driving eventually arrives, it won't be in a timeframe that's remotely interesting to current investors in these services.
- notahacker 9y ago
  And that's particularly true of South East Asia, where human driver costs are negligible and differences in road networks and driver behaviour create all sorts of interesting new challenges for self driving software even if it handles California near perfectly.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Those are good points. If I have trouble imagining self-driving vehicles navigating Boston at rush hour, it truly boggles the mind to imagine them making it around Bangkok, Jakarta, or KL. I'm an experienced driver and I wouldn't want to. And, as you say, while a lot of people probably overestimate the driver cost as a percentage of a taxi ride in developed Western countries, it truly is almost negligible in Southeast Asia. It's very common for people to have full-time drivers.
    - tomkit 9y ago

paulbjensen 9y ago

I'd love to see Uber's income statement - they've grown fast but are they profitable yet, and how much of their revenue comes from subsidised rides?

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
"Uber said it lost $1.1 billion in the last three months of 2017 on revenue of $11.05 billion — results that reflect a steady improvement in the company’s financial position, with revenues growing and losses narrowing. In the preceding quarter, Uber lost $1.46 billion on revenue of $9.7 billion. Uber said it lost $1.1 billion in the last three months of 2017 on revenue of $11.05 billion — results that reflect a steady improvement in the company’s financial position, with revenues growing and losses narrowing. In the preceding quarter, Uber lost $1.46 billion on revenue of $9.7 billion. ... Based on a financial earnings criteria excluding expenses like stock-based compensation — a significant portion of how Uber rewards its employees — the company said it lost $475 million in the fourth quarter compared with a loss of $607 million in the prior three-months period." https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/business/uber-earnings-ipo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/business/uber-earnings-ip...
- paulbjensen 9y ago
  Thanks. Starting to wonder how much cash in the bank they have.

nicolas_t 9y ago

Pity, the repeated discounts from grab and uber making trips almost free will quickly be a thing of the past... I like it when inventors subsidize my life style in an effort to get market share. Hope gojek can become a competitor in the markets I go to so that those discounts start again.

woadwarrior01 9y ago

I get a sense of deja vu with this deal, and previously the Didi deal in China. It's very reminiscent of how Yahoo ended up holding a large chunk of Alibaba stocks.

skinnymuch 9y ago
Also Uber merging/making a joint venture with Yandex in Russia and a few local countries where they got 1/3 of the company.

no1youknowz 9y ago

Not surprised. After watching this video [0], my conclusion was that there are no actual rides sharing companies in the world. There is only SoftBank. As an aside, Lei does some awesome videos on technology and definitely worth a subscription! [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfFX9iKZAj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfFX9iKZAj0

trisimix 9y ago
https://medium.com/@steve.yegge/why-i-left-google-to-join-grab-86dfffc0be84 https://medium.com/@steve.yegge/why-i-left-google-to-join-gr... That guy would disagree I think.
- ktta 9y ago
  Grab is also partly funded by SoftBank
- htormey 9y ago
  “In August 2017, Grab raised US$2.5 billion in series G funding from Softbank, Didi, and Toyota.[47” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grab_(company) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grab_(company)
- kimjongman 9y ago
  Go-jek will win in Indonesia
- mylons 9y ago
  "Didi and Softbank and countless others are funneling money into the key players." from the blog you linked. did you read it?
tomkit 9y ago
When the creator of that video uses hyperbole throughout, one should know to look elsewhere for research/analysis (hopefully primary sources).
htormey 9y ago
Have they invested in Lyft?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

aprao 9y ago

Anyone think Uber vs. Ola will go down the same path?

skinnymuch 9y ago
Eventually perhaps. There are differences for now. Namely this battle is mostly or only in India. And Uber has around half of the market share. With SoftBank owning 30% of Ola and 15% of Uber, I’m sure they’ll want consolidation.

samfisher83 9y ago

Here is a list of company softbank has invested in: Ola, Grab, Didi Chuxing, 99. https://qz.com/1187144/softbank-not-uber-is-the-real-king-of-ride-hailing/ https://qz.com/1187144/softbank-not-uber-is-the-real-king-of... Softbank/Saudi Arabia is going to control the global taxi market.

kjsingh 9y ago

So is Grab going to take over Uber in India?

skinnymuch 9y ago
I don’t think there’s any chance of that. Uber is only getting 27.5% of Grab. Uber has roughly 50% of India’s market. Grab has basically none of it.

rajacombinator 9y ago

So what is Uber’s thesis these days? Global taxi monopoly is dead. Self driving cars is dead. Time to dump this dog in an IPO and hit up the buyer of last resort ... America’s 401ks.

grizzles 9y ago

Anyone know how this works in practice? Is Grab somehow able to rebrand the Uber app with Google/Apple's blessing? I'm really curious.

cinquemb 9y ago
Uber sent out an email for people to download Grab, since it will no longer work in SE Asia after the 8th of April[0]. Personally, so far, I'm not impressed with grab's software and epayments infrastructure in Indonesia, compared to uber where I can use my card and pay for any of my wifes/friends usage without having to think about things like topping up or buying credits (though to be fair, a lot of platforms in Indonesia [maybe even SE Asia] seem to have the same situation regarding payments, with worse software). Maybe this will change, but right now it feels like a demotion. Here's to hoping a decentralized platform for ride hailing can come into existence in the future and remove the reliance on SoftBank's will to unify the market on their terms. [0] https://help.uber.com/h/1e6cfc45-10da-416c-a7a3-d13f75505c34 https://help.uber.com/h/1e6cfc45-10da-416c-a7a3-d13f75505c34