11 ms·

The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

80 points by Thevet 9y ago

LarryL 9y ago
My parents visited India a few years ago, they faced that issue when their guide refused to enter a coffee shop, when he explained that it was because he was not allowed to enter because of his caste, they turned back (disgusted)...
- tacomonstrous 9y ago
  One of the main benefits in India of increasing urbanization is the accompanying anonymity. I would assume this incident didn't occur in a big city. Did it?
  - voltooid 9y ago
    People that do want to hate others, will find reasons to hate.
    - INvidiA 9y ago
      Is it really hate though? Or just people accepting certain social standards and living their lives in accordance. Sure it's soul crushing for those who are oppressed, but the oppressors would probably be well adjusted people in other societies.
      - voltooid 9y ago
        From personal experience, I know that the people that may be described as the oppressors in Indian "urban" societies are often the ones that take on servile qualities when they try to assimilate in Western societies. Western society is often seen as the superior kind and the so-called oppressors of Indian society recognize a hierarchy in it, in which they are at a lower rung. It is hard to break out of that mindset. Of course, this is all based on personal experience. I wouldn't say this is the general rule.
      - ams6110 9y ago
        It's called hate here, when for example a person regards homosexuality as immoral and opposes gay marriage. I've rarely heard anyone publicly claim that such people just have different social standards, or if they do, they are vilified for defending hate. Any time in history when one group has been oppressed by another, it's been considered normal by majority social standards of the time. When those standards change, discord and sometimes even war is the result.
        INvidiA 9y ago
        But that's the issue. If someone simply sees homosexuality as a something that isn't "approved by God" or something of that nature, and they in their minds are just going along with God's law, are they really hating something? I've heard many anti-gay marriage people say that they have no problem with gay people but that they just oppose gay marriage. Is that cognitive dissonance? Almost certainly, but is it hate? I don't think so. We throw around the word "hate" too much and doing so loses a lot of the nuance bound up in human attitudes.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        voltooid 9y ago
        Engaging in discriminatory, derogatory and demeaning behaviour actively. That comes from hate. The experiences of the person featured in the linked article, that could only come from hate. I think people that oppose gay marriage do so because of hate. But found a neat little loophole out of being called hateful by claiming that they have no problem with gay people. My reasoning is this: taking any kind of stance on any subject requires some kind of motivation. If you are moved to spend energy on something, you are motivated by some need to do so. If you oppose something that does not directly affect you, the reason is most probably hate.
        Lambdanaut 9y ago
        As someone raised Southern Baptist but not currently identifying as so, I can attest that when I once peacefully opposed homosexuality, it was 100% out of a trust that God knew what he was doing and that I should trust him, despite my own personal ignorance. The belief that others can only oppose groups of people out of "hate" stems from a strong lack of empathy and understanding for people on the other side of the issue. > If you oppose something that does not directly affect you, the reason is most probably hate. Either that, or you are serving something percieved as greater than yourself.
      - jbros 9y ago
        This is a fundamental human algorithm that exists across all cultures and societies. This is exactly what hate is. And it should be pointed out by everyone. The oppressor only has power if others give it by being complicit.
    - tacomonstrous 9y ago
      My point had little to do with that. A city with millions of people and a large migrant population offer an opportunity to escape the communal memory that smaller populations can sustain. Unlike race, caste isn't an obviously visible feature, and even someone bent on discrimination will have a harder time discerning the relevant signifiers.
      - voltooid 9y ago
        People's last names often give away their caste, sometimes where they come from. I have seen people being treated poorly because of the way they dressed - that is the rich/poor divide. Also, a lot of Indians, even in cities, do still dress according to their religion or caste.
  - noobhacker 9y ago
    According to the author of the book being discussed, the caste system is very much alive in cities [1]. From what she said, it seems like people can tell your caste by asking a few simple questions or observing your body language. The caste system persists even among Indians in America. [1] https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-ants-among-elephants-tyler-cowen-bd11b423ba91 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-an...
    - magic_beans 9y ago
      Thanks for posting this. Sujatha Gidla sounds like a really amazing, intelligent, and vibrant person.
    - tacomonstrous 9y ago
      Discrimination when it comes to housing (just as in matrimony) is still rampant in India: religion, gender, marriage status, and certainly caste are all reasons people are regularly denied access to rental properties. I suppose my point was more about ephemeral commercial activity, like entering a coffee shop, which was the example that was given in the grandparent comment. Edit: Fascinating interview, by the way. Thanks for posting it! Loved this part: >GIDLA: I will say this: Everybody is dying to know whether I got into university because of reservations. My answer to them is, “Go ahead and die.”
  - LarryL 9y ago
    I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that it was in a big city. At least, I'm sure it was not in a small town/village in the country.
INvidiA 9y ago
These sort of class distinctions are much less pronounced in America, which is why so many oppressed or impoverished people from elsewhere yearn to travel here and make a new life. It's nice to hear about someone who was able to realize the American Dream and escape the class prejudice of their home country.
- goutham2688 9y ago
  https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/when-caste-follows-you-overseas-ostracism-discrimination-among-south-asians-us-78431 https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/when-caste-follows-you... Indians who are deemed lower caste are converting to Christianity to escape the tag.
  - cscurmudgeon 9y ago
    Hilarious since Indian versions of Christianity have caste.
- dharmach 9y ago
  When societies/individuals achieve high status and realize self-worth, they usually develop a generous and liberal disposition (not a bad thing). Unfortunately, when the position is threatened, they may go back to the survival mode and become intolerant.
  - INvidiA 9y ago
    That is very true. Also when societies/individuals don't have a long history they haven't had a chance to accumulate modes of thinking from the past that are no longer deemed appropriate but are difficult to shake off once acquired.
  - Lambdanaut 9y ago
    In Freudian terms: when under threat, people develop a highly anal response. When at peace, they develop an oral response.
- retSava 9y ago
quantummkv 9y ago
A better way to allegorize the Indian caste system would be the racism in USA. No one in urban centers or in the new generations is racist against black people. Go to the folks from the older generations and in the hinterlands and you will find that racism still exists somewhat. A similar trend is present in India. The new kids in urban centers don't care about caste. The old people in the villages and hinterlands? They do somewhat. And then you always have the politicians on every side of the spectrum who artificially inflate caste and race issues for their own gains.
- Blackthorn 9y ago
  > No one in urban centers or in the new generations is racist against black people. I'm sorry but this is just wrong, and you can prove it to yourself by reading the news any day.
  - quantummkv 9y ago
    Well it looks like mistyped that. I meant the majority of the people. You always have some people with other views.
    - d0lph 9y ago
      I was talking to a friend about their nephew, who has said some racist comments, but I think that is moreso the exception that proves the rule.
    - azinman2 9y ago
      Racism is not a binary thing. There are always low levels of racism, and they exist in urban centers most certainly in large numbers. I would say the vast majority of people are racist to some degree, in that they hold inescapable prejudice inside. It’s in our society and almost impossible to have it not at least subtlety enter ones consciousness.
    - yellowstuff 9y ago
      That view is hard to square with studies showing that resumes with black-sounding names get fewer callbacks. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/mar/15/jalen-ross/black-name-resume-50-percent-less-likely-get-respo/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/mar/15/...
fred_is_fred 9y ago
I must admit that simply from the headline I assumed that this was about a person who should have been fired multiple times for gross incompetence but the city could not due to some grievance process gone wrong.
- ubermonkey 9y ago
  RIGHT? And upon reading it, what a delightful surprise instead!
quantumofmalice 9y ago
Unlike most of her lot, her family was "middle class", thanks to the help of Canadian missionaries in her region who aided in education and offered them religion. Her family was thus Christian and benefited with education. Her parents held jobs as college teachers. Gidla says that proselytization didn't help her lot. "Christians, untouchables - it came to the same thing. All Christians in India were untouchable. I knew no Christian who did not turn servile in the presence of a Hindu." Proselytization did help her a lot: it was the reason the christians were there in the first place.
- mcguire 9y ago
  And affirmative action.
oflannabhra 9y ago
Tyler Cowen interviews Sujatha Gidla on his podcast, Conversations with Tyler [0]. Not having heard of her, and not having any exposure to caste societies, I was struck by the sharpness of her insight and the strength of her conviction. I highly recommend listening. [0] - https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-ants-among-elephants-tyler-cowen-bd11b423ba91 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-an...
- astrodust 9y ago
  > not having any exposure to caste societies... Never heard of America?
  - oflannabhra 9y ago
    The term "caste" is not used to refer to social stratification. It is more specific [0]. America has its own ethnic-based social stratification issues, but I think that opponents of caste systems would say that comparing modern day America, with its issues, to the entrenched caste system in India is a comparison that greatly waters-down the oppressiveness of caste and minimizes the challenges facing its reform. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste
    - astrodust 9y ago
      It's different in that in places like India you have significantly more layers and a lot more history. Also a lot more bullshit.
mcguire 9y ago
The child of "college teachers" and a former "researcher in applied physics" at IIT is now a train conductor with the New York subway? This is a good thing?
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  Hm? I don't understand the connection you're drawing to her parentage.
  - RobertRoberts 9y ago
    I do believe the reference is to her capacity for intellectual work (teaching vs driving a train) based on the environment her parents would have raised her in. Not genetics.
- wmil 9y ago
  Financially it's smarter than being a post-doc or untenured lecturer.
  - cscurmudgeon 9y ago
    Any data to back that up? Really curious.
    - astrodust 9y ago
      Starvation wages are the norm in the academic world.
    - fnbr 9y ago
      Post-docs, and adjunct professors make O($30k), which is less than what a subway conductor makes, presumably.
    - akgerber 9y ago
      Conductors average $62k/year: https://bizfluent.com/info-12099370-salary-new-york-city-train-conductor.html https://bizfluent.com/info-12099370-salary-new-york-city-tra... It's a decent middle class job.
oflannabhra 9y ago
To everyone whose response to this is "Oh yeah, that's just like racism and slavery in America." Please consider the following: Both racism and casteism have similar results. That is, subjugation of certain peoples, violations of human rights, the preservation of the oppressing class, death--a whole host of evils. However, they have different sources, are codified differently, entrenched in different cultures, and therefore should be addressed and combated differently. Sujatha did not write a book to make people understand that American slavery (and its continuing echo) is bad. Furthermore, purely trying to understand Sujatha's story through the lens of American slavery is essentially hand-waving away the points she is trying to make.

80 points by Thevet 9y ago

My parents visited India a few years ago, they faced that issue when their guide refused to enter a coffee shop, when he explained that it was because he was not allowed to enter because of his caste, they turned back (disgusted)...

tacomonstrous 9y ago
One of the main benefits in India of increasing urbanization is the accompanying anonymity. I would assume this incident didn't occur in a big city. Did it?
- voltooid 9y ago
  People that do want to hate others, will find reasons to hate.
  - INvidiA 9y ago
    Is it really hate though? Or just people accepting certain social standards and living their lives in accordance. Sure it's soul crushing for those who are oppressed, but the oppressors would probably be well adjusted people in other societies.
    - voltooid 9y ago
      From personal experience, I know that the people that may be described as the oppressors in Indian "urban" societies are often the ones that take on servile qualities when they try to assimilate in Western societies. Western society is often seen as the superior kind and the so-called oppressors of Indian society recognize a hierarchy in it, in which they are at a lower rung. It is hard to break out of that mindset. Of course, this is all based on personal experience. I wouldn't say this is the general rule.
    - ams6110 9y ago
      It's called hate here, when for example a person regards homosexuality as immoral and opposes gay marriage. I've rarely heard anyone publicly claim that such people just have different social standards, or if they do, they are vilified for defending hate. Any time in history when one group has been oppressed by another, it's been considered normal by majority social standards of the time. When those standards change, discord and sometimes even war is the result.
      - INvidiA 9y ago
        But that's the issue. If someone simply sees homosexuality as a something that isn't "approved by God" or something of that nature, and they in their minds are just going along with God's law, are they really hating something? I've heard many anti-gay marriage people say that they have no problem with gay people but that they just oppose gay marriage. Is that cognitive dissonance? Almost certainly, but is it hate? I don't think so. We throw around the word "hate" too much and doing so loses a lot of the nuance bound up in human attitudes.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        voltooid 9y ago
        Engaging in discriminatory, derogatory and demeaning behaviour actively. That comes from hate. The experiences of the person featured in the linked article, that could only come from hate. I think people that oppose gay marriage do so because of hate. But found a neat little loophole out of being called hateful by claiming that they have no problem with gay people. My reasoning is this: taking any kind of stance on any subject requires some kind of motivation. If you are moved to spend energy on something, you are motivated by some need to do so. If you oppose something that does not directly affect you, the reason is most probably hate.
        Lambdanaut 9y ago
        As someone raised Southern Baptist but not currently identifying as so, I can attest that when I once peacefully opposed homosexuality, it was 100% out of a trust that God knew what he was doing and that I should trust him, despite my own personal ignorance. The belief that others can only oppose groups of people out of "hate" stems from a strong lack of empathy and understanding for people on the other side of the issue. > If you oppose something that does not directly affect you, the reason is most probably hate. Either that, or you are serving something percieved as greater than yourself.
    - jbros 9y ago
      This is a fundamental human algorithm that exists across all cultures and societies. This is exactly what hate is. And it should be pointed out by everyone. The oppressor only has power if others give it by being complicit.
  - tacomonstrous 9y ago
    My point had little to do with that. A city with millions of people and a large migrant population offer an opportunity to escape the communal memory that smaller populations can sustain. Unlike race, caste isn't an obviously visible feature, and even someone bent on discrimination will have a harder time discerning the relevant signifiers.
    - voltooid 9y ago
      People's last names often give away their caste, sometimes where they come from. I have seen people being treated poorly because of the way they dressed - that is the rich/poor divide. Also, a lot of Indians, even in cities, do still dress according to their religion or caste.
- noobhacker 9y ago
  According to the author of the book being discussed, the caste system is very much alive in cities [1]. From what she said, it seems like people can tell your caste by asking a few simple questions or observing your body language. The caste system persists even among Indians in America. [1] https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-ants-among-elephants-tyler-cowen-bd11b423ba91 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-an...
  - magic_beans 9y ago
    Thanks for posting this. Sujatha Gidla sounds like a really amazing, intelligent, and vibrant person.
  - tacomonstrous 9y ago
    Discrimination when it comes to housing (just as in matrimony) is still rampant in India: religion, gender, marriage status, and certainly caste are all reasons people are regularly denied access to rental properties. I suppose my point was more about ephemeral commercial activity, like entering a coffee shop, which was the example that was given in the grandparent comment. Edit: Fascinating interview, by the way. Thanks for posting it! Loved this part: >GIDLA: I will say this: Everybody is dying to know whether I got into university because of reservations. My answer to them is, “Go ahead and die.”
- LarryL 9y ago
  I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that it was in a big city. At least, I'm sure it was not in a small town/village in the country.

INvidiA 9y ago

These sort of class distinctions are much less pronounced in America, which is why so many oppressed or impoverished people from elsewhere yearn to travel here and make a new life. It's nice to hear about someone who was able to realize the American Dream and escape the class prejudice of their home country.

goutham2688 9y ago
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/when-caste-follows-you-overseas-ostracism-discrimination-among-south-asians-us-78431 https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/when-caste-follows-you... Indians who are deemed lower caste are converting to Christianity to escape the tag.
- cscurmudgeon 9y ago
  Hilarious since Indian versions of Christianity have caste.
dharmach 9y ago
When societies/individuals achieve high status and realize self-worth, they usually develop a generous and liberal disposition (not a bad thing). Unfortunately, when the position is threatened, they may go back to the survival mode and become intolerant.
- INvidiA 9y ago
  That is very true. Also when societies/individuals don't have a long history they haven't had a chance to accumulate modes of thinking from the past that are no longer deemed appropriate but are difficult to shake off once acquired.
- Lambdanaut 9y ago
  In Freudian terms: when under threat, people develop a highly anal response. When at peace, they develop an oral response.
retSava 9y ago

quantummkv 9y ago

A better way to allegorize the Indian caste system would be the racism in USA. No one in urban centers or in the new generations is racist against black people. Go to the folks from the older generations and in the hinterlands and you will find that racism still exists somewhat. A similar trend is present in India. The new kids in urban centers don't care about caste. The old people in the villages and hinterlands? They do somewhat. And then you always have the politicians on every side of the spectrum who artificially inflate caste and race issues for their own gains.

Blackthorn 9y ago
> No one in urban centers or in the new generations is racist against black people. I'm sorry but this is just wrong, and you can prove it to yourself by reading the news any day.
- quantummkv 9y ago
  Well it looks like mistyped that. I meant the majority of the people. You always have some people with other views.
  - d0lph 9y ago
    I was talking to a friend about their nephew, who has said some racist comments, but I think that is moreso the exception that proves the rule.
  - azinman2 9y ago
    Racism is not a binary thing. There are always low levels of racism, and they exist in urban centers most certainly in large numbers. I would say the vast majority of people are racist to some degree, in that they hold inescapable prejudice inside. It’s in our society and almost impossible to have it not at least subtlety enter ones consciousness.
  - yellowstuff 9y ago
    That view is hard to square with studies showing that resumes with black-sounding names get fewer callbacks. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/mar/15/jalen-ross/black-name-resume-50-percent-less-likely-get-respo/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/mar/15/...

fred_is_fred 9y ago

I must admit that simply from the headline I assumed that this was about a person who should have been fired multiple times for gross incompetence but the city could not due to some grievance process gone wrong.

ubermonkey 9y ago
RIGHT? And upon reading it, what a delightful surprise instead!

quantumofmalice 9y ago

Unlike most of her lot, her family was "middle class", thanks to the help of Canadian missionaries in her region who aided in education and offered them religion. Her family was thus Christian and benefited with education. Her parents held jobs as college teachers. Gidla says that proselytization didn't help her lot. "Christians, untouchables - it came to the same thing. All Christians in India were untouchable. I knew no Christian who did not turn servile in the presence of a Hindu." Proselytization did help her a lot: it was the reason the christians were there in the first place.

mcguire 9y ago
And affirmative action.

oflannabhra 9y ago

Tyler Cowen interviews Sujatha Gidla on his podcast, Conversations with Tyler [0]. Not having heard of her, and not having any exposure to caste societies, I was struck by the sharpness of her insight and the strength of her conviction. I highly recommend listening. [0] - https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-ants-among-elephants-tyler-cowen-bd11b423ba91 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-an...

astrodust 9y ago
> not having any exposure to caste societies... Never heard of America?
- oflannabhra 9y ago
  The term "caste" is not used to refer to social stratification. It is more specific [0]. America has its own ethnic-based social stratification issues, but I think that opponents of caste systems would say that comparing modern day America, with its issues, to the entrenched caste system in India is a comparison that greatly waters-down the oppressiveness of caste and minimizes the challenges facing its reform. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste
  - astrodust 9y ago
    It's different in that in places like India you have significantly more layers and a lot more history. Also a lot more bullshit.

mcguire 9y ago

The child of "college teachers" and a former "researcher in applied physics" at IIT is now a train conductor with the New York subway? This is a good thing?

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
Hm? I don't understand the connection you're drawing to her parentage.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  I do believe the reference is to her capacity for intellectual work (teaching vs driving a train) based on the environment her parents would have raised her in. Not genetics.
wmil 9y ago
Financially it's smarter than being a post-doc or untenured lecturer.
- cscurmudgeon 9y ago
  Any data to back that up? Really curious.
  - astrodust 9y ago
    Starvation wages are the norm in the academic world.
  - fnbr 9y ago
    Post-docs, and adjunct professors make O($30k), which is less than what a subway conductor makes, presumably.
  - akgerber 9y ago
    Conductors average $62k/year: https://bizfluent.com/info-12099370-salary-new-york-city-train-conductor.html https://bizfluent.com/info-12099370-salary-new-york-city-tra... It's a decent middle class job.

oflannabhra 9y ago

To everyone whose response to this is "Oh yeah, that's just like racism and slavery in America." Please consider the following: Both racism and casteism have similar results. That is, subjugation of certain peoples, violations of human rights, the preservation of the oppressing class, death--a whole host of evils. However, they have different sources, are codified differently, entrenched in different cultures, and therefore should be addressed and combated differently. Sujatha did not write a book to make people understand that American slavery (and its continuing echo) is bad. Furthermore, purely trying to understand Sujatha's story through the lens of American slavery is essentially hand-waving away the points she is trying to make.