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All I can say is that, as a Brit (from a country where regular police don't even carry guns), I find the concept of average Joes owning guns of any description

All I can say is that, as a Brit (from a country where regular police don't even carry guns), I find the concept of average Joes owning guns of any description crazy. It seems like the outcome of a broken society in which people don't trust law enforcement to protect them. Maybe higher gun ownership rates don't directly lead to homicide, but that to me isn't even the issue - the elephant in the room is the massive cultural problem the US has with firearms, especially the way in which they have been politicised in such a bipartisan, black-or-white system.

iBelieve 9y ago
Specifically regarding people not trusting law enforcement, that's because in the U.S. police don't have a responsibility to protect individuals, just the community as a whole (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia). In addition, police often can't get to the scene of a crime in progress soon enough to prevent harm to the victims. As long as criminals are armed and able to commit crimes before the police can stop them, it seems reasonable that some citizens would choose to own guns in an attempt to protect themselves or their families.
- sleavey 9y ago
  In terms of police response time, is it so different to anywhere else in the world? Police services are underfunded in many countries but this doesn't seem to drive people to think that because they won't be helped in time they need firearms. As you say, people also feel the need to arm themselves because the criminals are armed, which to me has an obvious solution.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > that's because in the U.S. police don't have a responsibility to protect individuals That's also true of the UK, so it seems odd to mention it in a reply to someone from the UK.
  - iBelieve 9y ago
    I'm not familiar with the situation in other countries, so only spoke of my knowledge of the US and the legal case I linked to, though it does make sense that that's also true in the UK and elsewhere. Still, I would think that the reasons I mentioned should be valid or invalid regardless of the situation in other countries.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      You're saying that the rural community needs guns to stay safe? Suicide kills more people than murder, and restricting access to means and methods is the first thing you should do to reduce the death rate. One of the reasons the rural youth suicide rate is so high (double that of urban 10 to 24 year olds) is because of the easy access to guns. "guns keep people safe" is, frankly, fucking stupid.
      - sarvinc 9y ago
        A few things. WRT suicides; are you for restricting access to anything used to cause suicide or just firearms? I’m just now reading this, take it with a grain of salt, but it’s safe to say that firearms are used to keep people safe https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?httpsredir=1&article=6938&context=jclc https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewconten... I usually try not to enter in to arguments where I know I won’t change my mind. I’m wasting the time of someone who disagrees with me but is willing to exchange ideas. “frankly, fucking stupid” reads like you’re not interested in hearing contrary evidence. It saddens me.
txsh 9y ago
As an American, I cannot believe how easily you’re manipulated by your own government. In the US, homicide rates are based on the number of deaths where foul play is evident. In the UK, the reported homicide rate is based on the number of murder convictions. The large number of unsolved murders are ignored and you’ll never see anyone challenge your leaders about it because they control the press as well. Your country just blindly accepts whatever they see on the telly.
lostmsu 9y ago
It does make some sense not to trust police all the time. People can not just blindly trust their governments. And the only way to retaliate an oppressive government should not be strictly controlled.
- rschneid 9y ago
  Shooting firearms is definitely not the only way to retaliate against an oppressive government.
  - bassman9000 9y ago
    But is is one way. If government was to turn tyrannical, an armed society would have a chance to defend itself. but the government has drones Boots on the ground. Try to control a subcontinent of 325M people with drones and planes, when every corner could have an armed citizen. Ask the vietcong, or the afghani, how much they could do with small firearms. "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty." edit: grammar
    - realandreskytt 9y ago
      I guess that encapsulates the difference in attitude perfectly. Very real consequences in terms of people dead vs. something that might happen in the future and where guns might help. Do you fear the future or not. By the way, the article does its own share of data-wrangling by happily omitting the kinds of guns people own and how. In US one can simply buy an assault rifle. Down in Europe you need training, screening and physical exams of your home to get a gun. Both count as “a gun owned”
      - bassman9000 9y ago
        something that might happen in the future and where guns might help. So because something it's unlikely to happen you shouldn't take steps to protect you against it? Why having insurance, for instance?
      - 9y ago
falcolas 9y ago
> I find the concept of average Joes owning guns of any description crazy. It becomes a lot less crazy when you consider that parts of the US still take advantage of guns as protection against wild animals. It becomes a little less crazy when you consider that a lot of people use them as a hobby - target practice (it's part of a few different Olympic sports). Guns are, practically speaking, no more or less crazy than Bowie knives, hunting bows, cross bows, or any number of other devices purpose built for hunting. > the elephant in the room is the massive cultural problem the US has with firearms Yeah, definitely an issue. It's, oddly enough, largely a city vs. country issue. People in the city have no practical use for guns. People who don't have the miles of concrete protecting them from the wilds tend to take a much more practical view on the usefulness of, the need for, tools that can protect them from predators with teeth and claws. I've been within 100 yards of a black bear with her cubs. I'm glad I had a pistol at the time. I'm even more glad I had no cause to use it.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Guns are, practically speaking, no more or less crazy than Bowie knives, hunting bows, cross bows, or any number of other devices purpose built for hunting. US schools haven't seen a mass murder using knives, hunting bows, or cross bows. US school mass murders involve handguns and rifles.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    I can do a google search and find at least three "school stabbing sprees" in the US on the first page. In fact, it seems like you're much more likely to be stabbed while going to school than shot. Sharks kill, on average, about as many people as school spree shooters per year. Those deaths to sharks are preventable by offing all the sharks, are we doing that? Making policies based on outrage is a losing proposition.
- sleavey 9y ago
  > Guns are, practically speaking, no more or less crazy than Bowie knives, hunting bows, cross bows, or any number of other devices purpose built for hunting. I somewhat agree with the similarity, at least for rifles; however, many firearms in the US are legal and definitely not suitable nor intended for hunting. For the record, in the UK there are also rifle clubs and farmers are allowed to have rifles to protect their livestock from wild animals, but both groups get yearly inspections from the police and in general the police will know that you keep guns and therefore keep an eye on you. You have to keep the ammo separate from the guns, and both in locked containers with different keys. Hand guns are completely outlawed because they couldn't be justified in the context of hunting or protecting livestock. > I've been within 100 yards of a black bear with her cubs. I'm glad I had a pistol at the time. I'm even more glad I had no cause to use it. True. The wild animals in rural US are much more dangerous than in the UK, and so, like in the UK, there are some good but narrow reasons to own certain kinds of firearm. We seem to agree the issue is mainly guns (especially handguns) in cities. I hope the US can find a solution that keeps both inner city and rural dwellers relatively happy.
bassman9000 9y ago
the elephant in the room is the massive cultural problem the US has with firearms There's no such problem. That's what the article is about.
bb88 9y ago
In the western states (Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, etc), the time from a 911 call to a cop may be 30 minutes. It may also be hours depending upon the circumstance. So there is some consideration needed for ranchers and others that do have a livelihood out there and can't wait for the police to show up.
- cannonedhamster 9y ago
  Which only makes the argument that perhaps your access to firearms should be associated with actual proven need versus want. I don't get why this debate even exists though. Unless the second amendment is overturned firearms will always be legal and that's an unlikely thing to happen. If killing kids didn't make people care enough to outlaw them, then killing more isn't likely to increase the desire to outlaw firearms. Repealing the second amendment is a very, very unlikely scenario. Someone could walk into a nursery full of newborn babes tomorrow surrounded by a full tactical SWAT team, murder the entire SWAT team and babies and the response would only be that the SWAT team needs more weapons to protect against the killers and that perhaps the babies should have been armed as well. America has a hammer problem where they see the only solution to violence is more violence.
stmfreak 9y ago
That's okay. The USA is used to Brits trying to take away our guns. It was kinda the pivotal event that sparked the revolution and caused our ancestors to throw your ancestors out of the country. Not surprising that you still don't understand the big deal.

iBelieve 9y ago

Specifically regarding people not trusting law enforcement, that's because in the U.S. police don't have a responsibility to protect individuals, just the community as a whole (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia). In addition, police often can't get to the scene of a crime in progress soon enough to prevent harm to the victims. As long as criminals are armed and able to commit crimes before the police can stop them, it seems reasonable that some citizens would choose to own guns in an attempt to protect themselves or their families.

sleavey 9y ago
In terms of police response time, is it so different to anywhere else in the world? Police services are underfunded in many countries but this doesn't seem to drive people to think that because they won't be helped in time they need firearms. As you say, people also feel the need to arm themselves because the criminals are armed, which to me has an obvious solution.
DanBC 9y ago
> that's because in the U.S. police don't have a responsibility to protect individuals That's also true of the UK, so it seems odd to mention it in a reply to someone from the UK.
- iBelieve 9y ago
  I'm not familiar with the situation in other countries, so only spoke of my knowledge of the US and the legal case I linked to, though it does make sense that that's also true in the UK and elsewhere. Still, I would think that the reasons I mentioned should be valid or invalid regardless of the situation in other countries.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    You're saying that the rural community needs guns to stay safe? Suicide kills more people than murder, and restricting access to means and methods is the first thing you should do to reduce the death rate. One of the reasons the rural youth suicide rate is so high (double that of urban 10 to 24 year olds) is because of the easy access to guns. "guns keep people safe" is, frankly, fucking stupid.
    - sarvinc 9y ago
      A few things. WRT suicides; are you for restricting access to anything used to cause suicide or just firearms? I’m just now reading this, take it with a grain of salt, but it’s safe to say that firearms are used to keep people safe https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?httpsredir=1&article=6938&context=jclc https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewconten... I usually try not to enter in to arguments where I know I won’t change my mind. I’m wasting the time of someone who disagrees with me but is willing to exchange ideas. “frankly, fucking stupid” reads like you’re not interested in hearing contrary evidence. It saddens me.

txsh 9y ago

As an American, I cannot believe how easily you’re manipulated by your own government. In the US, homicide rates are based on the number of deaths where foul play is evident. In the UK, the reported homicide rate is based on the number of murder convictions. The large number of unsolved murders are ignored and you’ll never see anyone challenge your leaders about it because they control the press as well. Your country just blindly accepts whatever they see on the telly.

lostmsu 9y ago

It does make some sense not to trust police all the time. People can not just blindly trust their governments. And the only way to retaliate an oppressive government should not be strictly controlled.

rschneid 9y ago
Shooting firearms is definitely not the only way to retaliate against an oppressive government.
- bassman9000 9y ago
  But is is one way. If government was to turn tyrannical, an armed society would have a chance to defend itself. but the government has drones Boots on the ground. Try to control a subcontinent of 325M people with drones and planes, when every corner could have an armed citizen. Ask the vietcong, or the afghani, how much they could do with small firearms. "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty." edit: grammar
  - realandreskytt 9y ago
    I guess that encapsulates the difference in attitude perfectly. Very real consequences in terms of people dead vs. something that might happen in the future and where guns might help. Do you fear the future or not. By the way, the article does its own share of data-wrangling by happily omitting the kinds of guns people own and how. In US one can simply buy an assault rifle. Down in Europe you need training, screening and physical exams of your home to get a gun. Both count as “a gun owned”
    - bassman9000 9y ago
      something that might happen in the future and where guns might help. So because something it's unlikely to happen you shouldn't take steps to protect you against it? Why having insurance, for instance?
    - 9y ago

falcolas 9y ago

> I find the concept of average Joes owning guns of any description crazy. It becomes a lot less crazy when you consider that parts of the US still take advantage of guns as protection against wild animals. It becomes a little less crazy when you consider that a lot of people use them as a hobby - target practice (it's part of a few different Olympic sports). Guns are, practically speaking, no more or less crazy than Bowie knives, hunting bows, cross bows, or any number of other devices purpose built for hunting. > the elephant in the room is the massive cultural problem the US has with firearms Yeah, definitely an issue. It's, oddly enough, largely a city vs. country issue. People in the city have no practical use for guns. People who don't have the miles of concrete protecting them from the wilds tend to take a much more practical view on the usefulness of, the need for, tools that can protect them from predators with teeth and claws. I've been within 100 yards of a black bear with her cubs. I'm glad I had a pistol at the time. I'm even more glad I had no cause to use it.

DanBC 9y ago
> Guns are, practically speaking, no more or less crazy than Bowie knives, hunting bows, cross bows, or any number of other devices purpose built for hunting. US schools haven't seen a mass murder using knives, hunting bows, or cross bows. US school mass murders involve handguns and rifles.
- falcolas 9y ago
  I can do a google search and find at least three "school stabbing sprees" in the US on the first page. In fact, it seems like you're much more likely to be stabbed while going to school than shot. Sharks kill, on average, about as many people as school spree shooters per year. Those deaths to sharks are preventable by offing all the sharks, are we doing that? Making policies based on outrage is a losing proposition.
sleavey 9y ago
> Guns are, practically speaking, no more or less crazy than Bowie knives, hunting bows, cross bows, or any number of other devices purpose built for hunting. I somewhat agree with the similarity, at least for rifles; however, many firearms in the US are legal and definitely not suitable nor intended for hunting. For the record, in the UK there are also rifle clubs and farmers are allowed to have rifles to protect their livestock from wild animals, but both groups get yearly inspections from the police and in general the police will know that you keep guns and therefore keep an eye on you. You have to keep the ammo separate from the guns, and both in locked containers with different keys. Hand guns are completely outlawed because they couldn't be justified in the context of hunting or protecting livestock. > I've been within 100 yards of a black bear with her cubs. I'm glad I had a pistol at the time. I'm even more glad I had no cause to use it. True. The wild animals in rural US are much more dangerous than in the UK, and so, like in the UK, there are some good but narrow reasons to own certain kinds of firearm. We seem to agree the issue is mainly guns (especially handguns) in cities. I hope the US can find a solution that keeps both inner city and rural dwellers relatively happy.

bassman9000 9y ago

the elephant in the room is the massive cultural problem the US has with firearms There's no such problem. That's what the article is about.

bb88 9y ago

In the western states (Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, etc), the time from a 911 call to a cop may be 30 minutes. It may also be hours depending upon the circumstance. So there is some consideration needed for ranchers and others that do have a livelihood out there and can't wait for the police to show up.

cannonedhamster 9y ago
Which only makes the argument that perhaps your access to firearms should be associated with actual proven need versus want. I don't get why this debate even exists though. Unless the second amendment is overturned firearms will always be legal and that's an unlikely thing to happen. If killing kids didn't make people care enough to outlaw them, then killing more isn't likely to increase the desire to outlaw firearms. Repealing the second amendment is a very, very unlikely scenario. Someone could walk into a nursery full of newborn babes tomorrow surrounded by a full tactical SWAT team, murder the entire SWAT team and babies and the response would only be that the SWAT team needs more weapons to protect against the killers and that perhaps the babies should have been armed as well. America has a hammer problem where they see the only solution to violence is more violence.

stmfreak 9y ago

That's okay. The USA is used to Brits trying to take away our guns. It was kinda the pivotal event that sparked the revolution and caused our ancestors to throw your ancestors out of the country. Not surprising that you still don't understand the big deal.