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One: They’re sneaking suicide in with the data, and then obfuscating that inclusion with rhetoric. Alternative hypothesis: they’re including suicide data becau

One: They’re sneaking suicide in with the data, and then obfuscating that inclusion with rhetoric. Alternative hypothesis: they’re including suicide data because it’s relevent. Suicide is homicide (not murder), and they’re including the copious accidental killings (also homicide, also not necessarily murders).

iBelieve 9y ago
I see a difference between suicides and accidents vs murders when it comes to gun restrictions. If I chose to own guns (I don't), then I'm ultimately responsible for avoiding accidents and not committing suicide, just as I would be responsible for any other risky activity or sport I partake in. Murder on the other hand involves the criminal act of taking someone else's life. In my opinion, we should only focus on acts of criminal intent when discussing banning or restricting gun use, and only include accidents or suicide when we discuss laws that improve safe use of guns.
- hammock 9y ago
  What about drunk driving? Do you think DUI should be restricted even in victimless cases with no criminal intent?
  - iBelieve 9y ago
    Definitely, because drunk driving has the potential to harm others, even thought it may not always. Also, I'm not sure that's a good analogy, as trying to prevent drunk driving doesn't take the form of restricting driving for everyone, while gun control usually affects responsible gun owners as well as bad people and suicidal/uncareful people.
    - portofcall 9y ago
      The single greatest risk factor for someone committing suicide is a first-order relative who committed suicide. Everything in life isn’t as obvious as crashing a car into someone, but the harm of suicide extends far beyond the victim.
- skygazer 9y ago
  Suicides are not restricted to purchasers, but anyone suicidal that may find they have access to gun, like the purchasers children.
stmfreak 9y ago
Blending suicides in with homicides without declaring or defining their contribution is deceptive. Imagine if we tried to portray how dangerous cars were, even to people who do not own cars, by combining pedestrian deaths by car with driver and occupant deaths by car, without calling that out and using that "deaths by car" data immediately after discussing recent pedestrian deaths. With guns, you can opt out of ownership and be "safe" from suicide and accident by gun. If you opt out of living in a high crime area you are incredibly "safe" from homicide by gun as well. That takes care of 90% of deaths by gun. OTOH, if you own a gun, are careful, mentally stable and don't live in a high crime area, you have similar odds. Much like a pedestrian who shouldn't worry about getting killed by a car.

iBelieve 9y ago

I see a difference between suicides and accidents vs murders when it comes to gun restrictions. If I chose to own guns (I don't), then I'm ultimately responsible for avoiding accidents and not committing suicide, just as I would be responsible for any other risky activity or sport I partake in. Murder on the other hand involves the criminal act of taking someone else's life. In my opinion, we should only focus on acts of criminal intent when discussing banning or restricting gun use, and only include accidents or suicide when we discuss laws that improve safe use of guns.

hammock 9y ago
What about drunk driving? Do you think DUI should be restricted even in victimless cases with no criminal intent?
- iBelieve 9y ago
  Definitely, because drunk driving has the potential to harm others, even thought it may not always. Also, I'm not sure that's a good analogy, as trying to prevent drunk driving doesn't take the form of restricting driving for everyone, while gun control usually affects responsible gun owners as well as bad people and suicidal/uncareful people.
  - portofcall 9y ago
    The single greatest risk factor for someone committing suicide is a first-order relative who committed suicide. Everything in life isn’t as obvious as crashing a car into someone, but the harm of suicide extends far beyond the victim.
skygazer 9y ago
Suicides are not restricted to purchasers, but anyone suicidal that may find they have access to gun, like the purchasers children.

stmfreak 9y ago

Blending suicides in with homicides without declaring or defining their contribution is deceptive. Imagine if we tried to portray how dangerous cars were, even to people who do not own cars, by combining pedestrian deaths by car with driver and occupant deaths by car, without calling that out and using that "deaths by car" data immediately after discussing recent pedestrian deaths. With guns, you can opt out of ownership and be "safe" from suicide and accident by gun. If you opt out of living in a high crime area you are incredibly "safe" from homicide by gun as well. That takes care of 90% of deaths by gun. OTOH, if you own a gun, are careful, mentally stable and don't live in a high crime area, you have similar odds. Much like a pedestrian who shouldn't worry about getting killed by a car.