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Google is scarier in terms of its capabilities, but it's starting from a more solid ethical foundation.

a_imho 9y ago
it's starting from a more solid ethical foundation What do you base this on?
s2g 9y ago
No, it's starting from a foundation of loudly yelling about not being evil in order to distract from their evil behaviour.
wutbrodo 9y ago
I feel like this is a piece that people elide pretty frequently. The Google founders have spoken about tons of things over the years, and consistently come across as being principled and passionate, even if your moral foundation is different from theirs. Zuckerberg, on the other hand, set the tone with the "dumb fucks" IM and has only recently gotten better at not projecting contempt for his users. I honestly couldn't even pin down what his ethical foundations are, given that they seem to swing with the tides of public opinion and what PR message is currently convenient ("connect the whole world! every interaction is a good one!" --> the more recent "maybe some social interactions are bad, only 'good' ones from now on!"). It's of course entirely possible that this simply means that the Google guys are better at personal PR than Facebook is, but at the very least it helps explain why the perception of each is different.
- aylmao 9y ago
  Mark Zukerberg has a foundation with his wife, and they have vowed to donate 99% of their net worth to it [1]. This is Bill and Melinda Gates level; they also pledged to donate the vast majority of their wealth (95%). Sergey cheated on his wife with a Google employee (who was like 20 years younger and dating another executive) and got a widely publicized divorce [2]. We don't have transcripts for Sergey and Page, but how do we know they didn't also think their users were "dumb fucks", or weren't nice people in college? I am of the opinion that to become a billionaire you have to step on a lot of people; I am not one to think that Zuckerberg or Bill Gates are moral guides for anyone, and this very much applies to Page and Brin too. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_Chan_(philanthropist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_Chan_(philanthropist... [2]: http://www.straitstimes.com/lifestyle/entertainment/life-after-a-cheating-google-tycoon-ex http://www.straitstimes.com/lifestyle/entertainment/life-aft... EDIT: > I honestly couldn't even pin down what his ethical foundations are, given that they seem to swing with the tides of public opinion and what PR message is currently convenient Two points on this: 1. Google's mission is to "organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful". What's the "ethical foundation" behind that? Do we know this will make the world a better place? "Useful" for whom? 2. Both Google and Facebook are advertising companies. They optimize to sell ads.
  - wutbrodo 9y ago
    I'm making no claim as to how they are as people, but rather what they see as the philosophical center of their organizations. "Cheated on his wife" and "has a foundation" couldn't be less relevant. Bill Gates, as you mention, is practically the poster child for charity, and yet the idea that that implies much useful about the principles that animated Microsoft under his tenure is foolhardy. My statement didn't say anythjng about who they are as fully-rounded human beings, and even further, spoke only about the _perception_ of what their company's philosophies (as embodied by their founders words) are. You're flattening the nuance of my statement into a simple-minded "Sergey good, Zuck bad" that I didn't come close to expressing. The rest of your comment is pretty much a non sequitur and this is already a pretty long response, so forgive me for not addressing it (though I'm happy to if you think I'm being unfair to your point).
    - aylmao 9y ago
      > I'm making no claim as to how they are as people Well, sorry I thought you were, but when you say "consistently come across as being principled and passionate" and talk about who Zukerberg was as a person when he was 20 (when he made the "dumb fucks" comment) and his "his ethical foundations", it very much sounds you're making claims about them as people. > spoke only about the _perception_ of what their company's philosophies If you say "It's of course entirely possible that this simply means that the Google guys are better at personal", by personal I'm gonna assume you mean surrounding their person, not their companies, and personal PR _is_ very flat and all about "Sergey good" or "Zuck bad". My comment was meant to give the other side of the coin: it's evident you personally see Google's founders as better people ethically, and Zuck as lacking principles, so I gave you an example of the opposite to complement your point of view and hopefully give you a more rounded vision of them. They're all people, with their flaws and strengths; neither has it all figured out. > The rest of your comment is pretty much a non sequitur and this is already a pretty long response, so forgive me for not addressing it (though I'm happy to if you think I'm being unfair to your point). I don't mind long comments, feel free to address it. (:
      - wutbrodo 9y ago

it's starting from a more solid ethical foundation What do you base this on?

s2g 9y ago

No, it's starting from a foundation of loudly yelling about not being evil in order to distract from their evil behaviour.

wutbrodo 9y ago

I feel like this is a piece that people elide pretty frequently. The Google founders have spoken about tons of things over the years, and consistently come across as being principled and passionate, even if your moral foundation is different from theirs. Zuckerberg, on the other hand, set the tone with the "dumb fucks" IM and has only recently gotten better at not projecting contempt for his users. I honestly couldn't even pin down what his ethical foundations are, given that they seem to swing with the tides of public opinion and what PR message is currently convenient ("connect the whole world! every interaction is a good one!" --> the more recent "maybe some social interactions are bad, only 'good' ones from now on!"). It's of course entirely possible that this simply means that the Google guys are better at personal PR than Facebook is, but at the very least it helps explain why the perception of each is different.

aylmao 9y ago
Mark Zukerberg has a foundation with his wife, and they have vowed to donate 99% of their net worth to it [1]. This is Bill and Melinda Gates level; they also pledged to donate the vast majority of their wealth (95%). Sergey cheated on his wife with a Google employee (who was like 20 years younger and dating another executive) and got a widely publicized divorce [2]. We don't have transcripts for Sergey and Page, but how do we know they didn't also think their users were "dumb fucks", or weren't nice people in college? I am of the opinion that to become a billionaire you have to step on a lot of people; I am not one to think that Zuckerberg or Bill Gates are moral guides for anyone, and this very much applies to Page and Brin too. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_Chan_(philanthropist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_Chan_(philanthropist... [2]: http://www.straitstimes.com/lifestyle/entertainment/life-after-a-cheating-google-tycoon-ex http://www.straitstimes.com/lifestyle/entertainment/life-aft... EDIT: > I honestly couldn't even pin down what his ethical foundations are, given that they seem to swing with the tides of public opinion and what PR message is currently convenient Two points on this: 1. Google's mission is to "organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful". What's the "ethical foundation" behind that? Do we know this will make the world a better place? "Useful" for whom? 2. Both Google and Facebook are advertising companies. They optimize to sell ads.
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  I'm making no claim as to how they are as people, but rather what they see as the philosophical center of their organizations. "Cheated on his wife" and "has a foundation" couldn't be less relevant. Bill Gates, as you mention, is practically the poster child for charity, and yet the idea that that implies much useful about the principles that animated Microsoft under his tenure is foolhardy. My statement didn't say anythjng about who they are as fully-rounded human beings, and even further, spoke only about the _perception_ of what their company's philosophies (as embodied by their founders words) are. You're flattening the nuance of my statement into a simple-minded "Sergey good, Zuck bad" that I didn't come close to expressing. The rest of your comment is pretty much a non sequitur and this is already a pretty long response, so forgive me for not addressing it (though I'm happy to if you think I'm being unfair to your point).
  - aylmao 9y ago
    > I'm making no claim as to how they are as people Well, sorry I thought you were, but when you say "consistently come across as being principled and passionate" and talk about who Zukerberg was as a person when he was 20 (when he made the "dumb fucks" comment) and his "his ethical foundations", it very much sounds you're making claims about them as people. > spoke only about the _perception_ of what their company's philosophies If you say "It's of course entirely possible that this simply means that the Google guys are better at personal", by personal I'm gonna assume you mean surrounding their person, not their companies, and personal PR _is_ very flat and all about "Sergey good" or "Zuck bad". My comment was meant to give the other side of the coin: it's evident you personally see Google's founders as better people ethically, and Zuck as lacking principles, so I gave you an example of the opposite to complement your point of view and hopefully give you a more rounded vision of them. They're all people, with their flaws and strengths; neither has it all figured out. > The rest of your comment is pretty much a non sequitur and this is already a pretty long response, so forgive me for not addressing it (though I'm happy to if you think I'm being unfair to your point). I don't mind long comments, feel free to address it. (:
    - wutbrodo 9y ago