3 ms·

> If you want to learn, you have to try harder. Rather than learning being pointless, I would focus on this. In a world of instant gratification we are fed th

> If you want to learn, you have to try harder. Rather than learning being pointless, I would focus on this. In a world of instant gratification we are fed the idea that if learning isn't fun and easy, then you are teaching wrong. Granted, a lot of material can be optimised, but I concur that people should expect to have to make a bigger effort once you pass the superficial stage.

ghaff 9y ago
That's the problem that I've always had with the "learning should be fun" slogan. Yes, a lot of teaching isn't well done and ideally it would be a lot more individualized. But learning a topic to any real depth is also a lot of work which is absolutely not going to be "fun," at least as the term is usually used, all the time.
- extralego 9y ago
  I have always questioned claims that “learning should be fun” for many reasons, but I think it would be a fallacy to think learning cannot be fun. The exception I experience regularly involves curiosity. When I am curious about something, learning it is usually fun. But, this is a fairly personal process. I’m not sure it can be inherently encouraged through teaching methods. The Socratic method seems to reflect this notion but is more a useful tool for guidance than for exciting curiosity. I still remind myself regularly that learning without the push of curiosity is necessary, and a path to that next burst of curiosity.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Oh learning can absolutely be fun (and exciting etc.) And some types of learning activities can be genuinely fun in the playing a game sense of the word. I just think that there’s a problem with the mindset that if you aren’t loving every minute you’re learning there’s something wrong. I also enjoy writing. I can also assure you that looming deadlines are not fun by reasonable definitions of the word :-)
    - vram22 9y ago
      >Oh learning can absolutely be fun (and exciting etc.) And some types of learning activities can be genuinely fun in the playing a game sense of the word. I just think that there’s a problem with the mindset that if you aren’t loving every minute you’re learning there’s something wrong. Spot on, IMO. That mindset is encouraged or aggravated by kind of e-learning startups that seem to want to kidify / gamify / dumbify all their content. I've had interactions with some of them when they approached me for partnerships of some kind, or for content creation, often in Python. Have had to say no to some of them due to that mindset, which I do not think is good for either the students or the instructors / companies providing the instruction, from both a pedagogical and a business (profit) point of view.
    - extralego 9y ago
      Like I said, “I think it would be a fallacy to think learning cannot be fun.“
- kitsunesoba 9y ago
  I believe that it may be more useful to figure out what makes learning “not fun” than to try to find ways to make it “fun”. For me, this largely boils down to whether the subject is being taught within an applicable context or not – for instance, I find it quite dry and unfun to try to learn CS concepts for their own sake, whereas if I’m learning them because they’re needed for my current project they’re quite interesting. This varies from person to person but my impression is that many people are like myself in this aspect.
roudaki 9y ago
You are on to something. Learning is incompatible with instant gratification mass consumer society. I was just at udemy event and online learning is shifting from gamification to social activity. And there is new research behind this that studied decade of online learning services and students at universities and private companies. In short personal small projects and big group projects good. Campaign learning and just reading PDFs bad. But big shock is that group learning with clear goal is so effective it dwarfs every other method. One graph showed like 5 to 1 better retention then gamified or solo learning.

ghaff 9y ago

That's the problem that I've always had with the "learning should be fun" slogan. Yes, a lot of teaching isn't well done and ideally it would be a lot more individualized. But learning a topic to any real depth is also a lot of work which is absolutely not going to be "fun," at least as the term is usually used, all the time.

extralego 9y ago
I have always questioned claims that “learning should be fun” for many reasons, but I think it would be a fallacy to think learning cannot be fun. The exception I experience regularly involves curiosity. When I am curious about something, learning it is usually fun. But, this is a fairly personal process. I’m not sure it can be inherently encouraged through teaching methods. The Socratic method seems to reflect this notion but is more a useful tool for guidance than for exciting curiosity. I still remind myself regularly that learning without the push of curiosity is necessary, and a path to that next burst of curiosity.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Oh learning can absolutely be fun (and exciting etc.) And some types of learning activities can be genuinely fun in the playing a game sense of the word. I just think that there’s a problem with the mindset that if you aren’t loving every minute you’re learning there’s something wrong. I also enjoy writing. I can also assure you that looming deadlines are not fun by reasonable definitions of the word :-)
  - vram22 9y ago
    >Oh learning can absolutely be fun (and exciting etc.) And some types of learning activities can be genuinely fun in the playing a game sense of the word. I just think that there’s a problem with the mindset that if you aren’t loving every minute you’re learning there’s something wrong. Spot on, IMO. That mindset is encouraged or aggravated by kind of e-learning startups that seem to want to kidify / gamify / dumbify all their content. I've had interactions with some of them when they approached me for partnerships of some kind, or for content creation, often in Python. Have had to say no to some of them due to that mindset, which I do not think is good for either the students or the instructors / companies providing the instruction, from both a pedagogical and a business (profit) point of view.
  - extralego 9y ago
    Like I said, “I think it would be a fallacy to think learning cannot be fun.“
kitsunesoba 9y ago
I believe that it may be more useful to figure out what makes learning “not fun” than to try to find ways to make it “fun”. For me, this largely boils down to whether the subject is being taught within an applicable context or not – for instance, I find it quite dry and unfun to try to learn CS concepts for their own sake, whereas if I’m learning them because they’re needed for my current project they’re quite interesting. This varies from person to person but my impression is that many people are like myself in this aspect.

roudaki 9y ago

You are on to something. Learning is incompatible with instant gratification mass consumer society. I was just at udemy event and online learning is shifting from gamification to social activity. And there is new research behind this that studied decade of online learning services and students at universities and private companies. In short personal small projects and big group projects good. Campaign learning and just reading PDFs bad. But big shock is that group learning with clear goal is so effective it dwarfs every other method. One graph showed like 5 to 1 better retention then gamified or solo learning.