5 ms·

In the blink of an eye, it seems, we have gone from a world in which collecting, storing, and using personal data for financial gain was largely viewed as a har

by cs702 9y ago

In the blink of an eye, it seems, we have gone from a world in which collecting, storing, and using personal data for financial gain was largely viewed as a harmless activity, to a world in which doing those same things will be increasingly controlled and regulated, scrutinized, criticized, investigated, fined, and ultimately, I suspect, criminalized.

pjc50 9y ago
Years ago Bruce Schneier said that nothing would happen until there was the privacy equivalent of the Exxon Valdez / Bhopal / Chernobyl; a leak high profile and toxic enough to irrevocably change public opinion. Maybe this is that trigger event. The EU was ahead on this, adopting data protection rules from 1995, before even the first dotcom boom. I believe it's a legacy of fear of the Stasi driving opposition to surveillance.
- 46886532558 9y ago
  Also the CCC and European hacker culture. I think in the US hacker culture is different and less political, because of the FBI suffocating its roots early on, and a general fear of leftist politics. In europe, and Germany in particular, the CCC and close structures have been really important correctives since before the internet. And they are like reeeally left wing anticapitalist idealists and antiauthoritarians, which plays part to their motivation.
  - YorkshireSeason 9y ago
    they are like reeeally left wing The historical record of the extreme left is extremely pro-state, pro surveillance. Indeed, the Marxist corrective to freewheeling capitalism was a strong socialist state (to cover the period before communism emerges and the state withers away) [1]. Many modern surveillance techniques were pioneered or refined by the likes of the OGPU [2], the NKVD [3] and their equivalents in satellite states like the Stasi [4] in the GDR, or the secret police in China (sorry I have no good reference). Note that both Wilhelm Zaisser [5](founder of the Stasi) and Kang Sheng [6] (founder of China's secret police) had worked in Moscow under Stalin in the security services. This is historically very well documented, but seems to be somehow unpalatable ... [1] https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_State_Political_Directorate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_State_Political_Director... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Zaisser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Zaisser [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_Sheng https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_Sheng Edit: replaced "left" by "extreme left" for additional clarity.
    - IAmEveryone 9y ago
      Here's a list of talks given at the CCCongress: https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2017/Fahrplan/events.html#ethics,%20society%20&%20politics https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2017/Fahrplan/events... You don't have to go from "left-wing hacker collective" right to Stalin if there's data readily available on the actual subject being discussed. (There should actually be a left-wing equivalent of Godwin's law. Maybe "There-Is-No-Godwin's law"?)
      - YorkshireSeason 9y ago
        I have commented not on the CCC but on user: 46886532558's original claim that being "reeeally left wing" is somehow a plausible reason for being anti-surveillance. This association is misleading, and I feel a responsibility to correct this historical mistake. This correction is especially apt since Germany is still full of Stasi victims.
        pyjammas 9y ago
        > The historical record of the left is extremely pro-state, pro surveillance I think the problem with your comment is that you're flat-out misrepresenting the 'reeeally left wing'. There are plenty of 'leftist' movements that are just as opposed to 'the state' as they are to our corporate overlords. Arguing otherwise is either plain stupidity or intentional misrepresentation.
        YorkshireSeason 9y ago
        Railing against "the state" or "our corporate overlords" is not a mature political position, but merely unfocussed, reflection-free rage that gets tooled / channeled by political organisers and activists on the left and right, not to mention commercially exploited by the Facebooks of this world, whence Zuckerberg's "Dumb Fucks".
        pyjammas 9y ago
        > Railing against "the state" or "our corporate overlords" is not a mature political position Why not? Historically anarchists played a mentionable role in this whole leftist thing. EDIT: Also, could you elaborate on what you mean with 'a mature position'? I've found that kind of statement to be an effective but dishonest way to dismiss things.
- nolok 9y ago
  In France we always had strong laws too (we basically adapted our super old laws for "files and info on paper" to "files and info on paper on a computer"), in decent part because Vichy. Technically I could already ten years ago ask any company to show me every file they had on me, allow me to edit, and ask them to delete, and they had to comply. But the era on gigantic worldwide corp made this much harder to enforce, and thus much harder for user to enjoy their rights. I'm glad the EU moved forward on standardisation and enforcement at EU level. No more "the data you refer to is in Ireland and owned by an Irish company that doesn't operate in France !" and crap like that.
lostlogin 9y ago
It’s interesting how the collection of the same information by the likes of the five eyes is ok, yet for Facebook it isn’t.
- beagle3 9y ago
  It is interesting how it is ok for a country to jail people whose conduct it disapproves of, yet for any non-government entity it isn't. /s
- xr4ti 9y ago
  Seems perfectly in line with restrictions on other dual use technologies, such as biological pathogens, nuclear fuels, etc.
  - olivermarks 9y ago
    The crackdown on free speech / Section 230 legislative changes is all part of this reining in of the 'information merchants'. https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230 https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230 Expect the launch of a shiny new 'social network' foundationed in 'safe' cryptocurrency commerce and led by an unknown fresh faced kid who 'invented it in his dorm room' and took no money from Russian offshore mob oligarchs...
    - xr4ti 9y ago
      Sorry I don't quite follow your comment. What does free speech have to do with unregulated, unconsented mass surveillance and violation of end user privacy? That "new" social network already exists. It's called Snapchat. I think it's an open question whether social networks will even continue to exist in their current form. There was a time when people connected over Yahoo Chat and AIM...
      - olivermarks 9y ago
        'What does free speech have to do with unregulated, unconsented mass surveillance and violation of end user privacy?' the original legislation that enabled the modern web 2.0 platforms to exist was Section 230. Now that logic looks set to be struck down. https://www.law.com/therecorder/2018/03/21/senate-overwhelmingly-approves-sex-trafficking-bill-to-amend-section-230/?slreturn=20180224144229 https://www.law.com/therecorder/2018/03/21/senate-overwhelmi... I suggested a new more invasive platform will launch for deeper and more covert mass surveillance in light of GDPR in europe and now the end of the FB and Google gravy train when Section 230 changes makes the platform companies liable for what you say when you exercise your free speech in the USA...
bluesmonk 9y ago
I just hope this does not backfire as new service models that require explicit consent (through ToS) from the user to allow monetizing user data in order to use such service.
the_cat_kittles 9y ago
news reports and reported public opinion seem to have shifted rapidly. but lots of people have been very vocal about how this is bad for a long time.
maxander 9y ago
And this is the climate while tremendously powerful corporations consider personal data collection to be a lynchpin of their moneymaking strategy (i.e., advertising.) Once internet advertising becomes broadly recognized as being not worth the cost, the demand for this data could fall off a cliff- what will policy look like then? I consider it a reason to be optimistic.
- pyjammas 9y ago
  Too early to tell. It took almost a week to get a warrant to raid the CA offices, and while I do sort-of understand why, it's not promising. Furthermore, the Snowden revelations didn't have as much of an effect as I'd hoped, and once it 'blew over' it largely stopped being a public concern. The same could happen here. Perhaps Zuck will be fired or we'll stop hearing about his (alleged) ambitions to enter politics, and that will be the end of it. Let's not forget that CA is just one company. As long as Robert Mercer can continue doing what he does under various shell companies that are easy to register, we really haven't gotten anywhere unless regulations are implemented, and somehow applied globally.

by cs702 9y ago

pjc50 9y ago

Years ago Bruce Schneier said that nothing would happen until there was the privacy equivalent of the Exxon Valdez / Bhopal / Chernobyl; a leak high profile and toxic enough to irrevocably change public opinion. Maybe this is that trigger event. The EU was ahead on this, adopting data protection rules from 1995, before even the first dotcom boom. I believe it's a legacy of fear of the Stasi driving opposition to surveillance.

46886532558 9y ago
Also the CCC and European hacker culture. I think in the US hacker culture is different and less political, because of the FBI suffocating its roots early on, and a general fear of leftist politics. In europe, and Germany in particular, the CCC and close structures have been really important correctives since before the internet. And they are like reeeally left wing anticapitalist idealists and antiauthoritarians, which plays part to their motivation.
- YorkshireSeason 9y ago
  they are like reeeally left wing The historical record of the extreme left is extremely pro-state, pro surveillance. Indeed, the Marxist corrective to freewheeling capitalism was a strong socialist state (to cover the period before communism emerges and the state withers away) [1]. Many modern surveillance techniques were pioneered or refined by the likes of the OGPU [2], the NKVD [3] and their equivalents in satellite states like the Stasi [4] in the GDR, or the secret police in China (sorry I have no good reference). Note that both Wilhelm Zaisser [5](founder of the Stasi) and Kang Sheng [6] (founder of China's secret police) had worked in Moscow under Stalin in the security services. This is historically very well documented, but seems to be somehow unpalatable ... [1] https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_State_Political_Directorate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_State_Political_Director... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Zaisser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Zaisser [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_Sheng https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_Sheng Edit: replaced "left" by "extreme left" for additional clarity.
  - IAmEveryone 9y ago
    Here's a list of talks given at the CCCongress: https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2017/Fahrplan/events.html#ethics,%20society%20&%20politics https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2017/Fahrplan/events... You don't have to go from "left-wing hacker collective" right to Stalin if there's data readily available on the actual subject being discussed. (There should actually be a left-wing equivalent of Godwin's law. Maybe "There-Is-No-Godwin's law"?)
    - YorkshireSeason 9y ago
      I have commented not on the CCC but on user: 46886532558's original claim that being "reeeally left wing" is somehow a plausible reason for being anti-surveillance. This association is misleading, and I feel a responsibility to correct this historical mistake. This correction is especially apt since Germany is still full of Stasi victims.
      - pyjammas 9y ago
        > The historical record of the left is extremely pro-state, pro surveillance I think the problem with your comment is that you're flat-out misrepresenting the 'reeeally left wing'. There are plenty of 'leftist' movements that are just as opposed to 'the state' as they are to our corporate overlords. Arguing otherwise is either plain stupidity or intentional misrepresentation.
        YorkshireSeason 9y ago
        Railing against "the state" or "our corporate overlords" is not a mature political position, but merely unfocussed, reflection-free rage that gets tooled / channeled by political organisers and activists on the left and right, not to mention commercially exploited by the Facebooks of this world, whence Zuckerberg's "Dumb Fucks".
        pyjammas 9y ago
        > Railing against "the state" or "our corporate overlords" is not a mature political position Why not? Historically anarchists played a mentionable role in this whole leftist thing. EDIT: Also, could you elaborate on what you mean with 'a mature position'? I've found that kind of statement to be an effective but dishonest way to dismiss things.
nolok 9y ago
In France we always had strong laws too (we basically adapted our super old laws for "files and info on paper" to "files and info on paper on a computer"), in decent part because Vichy. Technically I could already ten years ago ask any company to show me every file they had on me, allow me to edit, and ask them to delete, and they had to comply. But the era on gigantic worldwide corp made this much harder to enforce, and thus much harder for user to enjoy their rights. I'm glad the EU moved forward on standardisation and enforcement at EU level. No more "the data you refer to is in Ireland and owned by an Irish company that doesn't operate in France !" and crap like that.

lostlogin 9y ago

It’s interesting how the collection of the same information by the likes of the five eyes is ok, yet for Facebook it isn’t.

beagle3 9y ago
It is interesting how it is ok for a country to jail people whose conduct it disapproves of, yet for any non-government entity it isn't. /s
xr4ti 9y ago
Seems perfectly in line with restrictions on other dual use technologies, such as biological pathogens, nuclear fuels, etc.
- olivermarks 9y ago
  The crackdown on free speech / Section 230 legislative changes is all part of this reining in of the 'information merchants'. https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230 https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230 Expect the launch of a shiny new 'social network' foundationed in 'safe' cryptocurrency commerce and led by an unknown fresh faced kid who 'invented it in his dorm room' and took no money from Russian offshore mob oligarchs...
  - xr4ti 9y ago
    Sorry I don't quite follow your comment. What does free speech have to do with unregulated, unconsented mass surveillance and violation of end user privacy? That "new" social network already exists. It's called Snapchat. I think it's an open question whether social networks will even continue to exist in their current form. There was a time when people connected over Yahoo Chat and AIM...
    - olivermarks 9y ago
      'What does free speech have to do with unregulated, unconsented mass surveillance and violation of end user privacy?' the original legislation that enabled the modern web 2.0 platforms to exist was Section 230. Now that logic looks set to be struck down. https://www.law.com/therecorder/2018/03/21/senate-overwhelmingly-approves-sex-trafficking-bill-to-amend-section-230/?slreturn=20180224144229 https://www.law.com/therecorder/2018/03/21/senate-overwhelmi... I suggested a new more invasive platform will launch for deeper and more covert mass surveillance in light of GDPR in europe and now the end of the FB and Google gravy train when Section 230 changes makes the platform companies liable for what you say when you exercise your free speech in the USA...

bluesmonk 9y ago

I just hope this does not backfire as new service models that require explicit consent (through ToS) from the user to allow monetizing user data in order to use such service.

the_cat_kittles 9y ago

news reports and reported public opinion seem to have shifted rapidly. but lots of people have been very vocal about how this is bad for a long time.

maxander 9y ago

And this is the climate while tremendously powerful corporations consider personal data collection to be a lynchpin of their moneymaking strategy (i.e., advertising.) Once internet advertising becomes broadly recognized as being not worth the cost, the demand for this data could fall off a cliff- what will policy look like then? I consider it a reason to be optimistic.

pyjammas 9y ago
Too early to tell. It took almost a week to get a warrant to raid the CA offices, and while I do sort-of understand why, it's not promising. Furthermore, the Snowden revelations didn't have as much of an effect as I'd hoped, and once it 'blew over' it largely stopped being a public concern. The same could happen here. Perhaps Zuck will be fired or we'll stop hearing about his (alleged) ambitions to enter politics, and that will be the end of it. Let's not forget that CA is just one company. As long as Robert Mercer can continue doing what he does under various shell companies that are easy to register, we really haven't gotten anywhere unless regulations are implemented, and somehow applied globally.