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> Talk to the Taiwanese themselves. I have to ask, have you actually done this? From a random 2017 poll[1]: >> Three quarters of Taiwanese people think Taiwan

> Talk to the Taiwanese themselves. I have to ask, have you actually done this? From a random 2017 poll[1]: >> Three quarters of Taiwanese people think Taiwan and China are two separate countries, while only about 14 per cent believe they are both part of one nation Or[2]: >> For Taiwanese younger than 40, pro-independence support reaches 84 percent. Perhaps most startling, 43 percent of the under-40 generation would support independence even if it meant China would attack Taiwan under the risk of war. Polls conducted by pro-China and pro-Taiwan media typically have slightly different numbers, but the trend across polls is crystal clear, and matches my experience from living there for ~4 years. It's true that the ROC constitution claims all of the mainland for historical reasons. The thing is, if Taiwan were to give up that claim, they'd probably trigger the PRC's anti-secession law and get sucked into a war. Holding up this territorial claim as a proof that the Taiwanese see themselves as a part of China is extremely cynical. [1] http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2099286/most-taiwanese-consider-taiwan-china-separate-countries http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/209... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/01/02/yes-taiwan-wants-one-china-but-which-china-does-it-want/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/01/0...

dnomad 9y ago
To your point I think attitudes have recently shifted a lot. As little as 10 years ago my experience was that many Taiwanese regarded themselves as Chinese even though they regarded the PRC as wholly illegitimate. It's still the case, I believe, that no major political party has declared independence as part of their platform. Whether this is because such a position would be wholly unconstitutional or because China would invade is debatable. As you point out, the Taiwanese government from the very beginning, and as recorded in the constitution, has regarded themselves as the true rulers of China and not viewed themselves as a separate nation state. Given this the PRC position that Taiwan is a breakaway province and is part of China is understandable.
- gurkendoktor 9y ago
  > As you point out, the Taiwanese government from the very beginning, and as recorded in the constitution, has regarded themselves as the true rulers of China and not viewed themselves as a separate nation state. When the ROC was established in 1912, Taiwan was not a part of China. It's misleading to refer to that as the very beginning of the Taiwanese government. The ROC government has only been indicative of the will of the Taiwanese people since democratization in the 1990s. > It's still the case, I believe, that no major political party has declared independence as part of their platform. Whether this is because such a position would be wholly unconstitutional or because China would invade is debatable. It's a bit of a tautology that declaring independence would be unconstitutional, because the constitution is the key piece of what needs to be updated. IANAL, but I think it's even possible to achieve independence within the framework of the current constitution since it guarantees the right to referendums. The government would need to change the scope of referendums by passing a law (see [1]), and then the referendum would have to succeed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Republic_of_China#Referendums_and_constitutional_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Republic_o...

dnomad 9y ago

To your point I think attitudes have recently shifted a lot. As little as 10 years ago my experience was that many Taiwanese regarded themselves as Chinese even though they regarded the PRC as wholly illegitimate. It's still the case, I believe, that no major political party has declared independence as part of their platform. Whether this is because such a position would be wholly unconstitutional or because China would invade is debatable. As you point out, the Taiwanese government from the very beginning, and as recorded in the constitution, has regarded themselves as the true rulers of China and not viewed themselves as a separate nation state. Given this the PRC position that Taiwan is a breakaway province and is part of China is understandable.

gurkendoktor 9y ago
> As you point out, the Taiwanese government from the very beginning, and as recorded in the constitution, has regarded themselves as the true rulers of China and not viewed themselves as a separate nation state. When the ROC was established in 1912, Taiwan was not a part of China. It's misleading to refer to that as the very beginning of the Taiwanese government. The ROC government has only been indicative of the will of the Taiwanese people since democratization in the 1990s. > It's still the case, I believe, that no major political party has declared independence as part of their platform. Whether this is because such a position would be wholly unconstitutional or because China would invade is debatable. It's a bit of a tautology that declaring independence would be unconstitutional, because the constitution is the key piece of what needs to be updated. IANAL, but I think it's even possible to achieve independence within the framework of the current constitution since it guarantees the right to referendums. The government would need to change the scope of referendums by passing a law (see [1]), and then the referendum would have to succeed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Republic_of_China#Referendums_and_constitutional_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Republic_o...