3 ms·

It is a strange independence the demands the destruction of local democratic governance.

matthewmacleod 9y ago
Not really. Independence is an axis like any other, and trading it off in some areas can result in a greater benefit at the the scale of all members.
- RobertoG 9y ago
  It's a pity that, as the economic data shows, this is not the case.
barrkel 9y ago
Subsidiarity is a core principle of the EU, FWIW. There's another way to look at freedom: freedom from, rather than freedom to. Governments are generally instituted to ensure the former rather than the latter. They put restraints on some freedoms to increase other freedoms. Thus, for example, the specific standards that goods are produced to and services are provided at may be set centrally, removing freedom to vary at a local level, but adding freedom to sell across the whole union with very low barriers to trade (i.e. freedom from variance in standards). Since freedom to vary on standards at the local level frequently ends up with beggar-thy-neighbour policies, or anti-competitive regulations, it's not a bad trade.
- RobertoG 9y ago
  Freedom from democratic governance sounds like a suspicious kind of freedom to me.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    EU officials are appointed either by the democratically elected governments of the member states of by the democratically elected European Parliament. Unless you reject all kinds of representative democracy, the EU seems pretty democratic to me. And most EU states are only democratic in the representative sense anyway.
    - RobertoG 9y ago
      In theory, but the reality of the issue is very different. The European Parliament is all powerful except for the important things. The real power is in the hands of the commission, which, in practice, it's not more than an international forum, where, as in all the international forums, the will of the stronger states is the law. The state members are bond by treaties that, in practice, are impossible to change by the population and that, in fact, are used to limit what the population could choose. In theory, the EU could be a democratic institution, but there is not the will for that, quite the opposite, in my opinion. The population is slowing awaking to those realities and the relevant institutions would do well addressing all those problems before is too late.
      - madez 9y ago
        While the commission is not directly elected by the people, it is indirectly. That is in accordance to how many governments are formed. Every country can send just one member of the commission. Decisions are made by majority vote. Every member has the same weight, except the president, which is a tie-breaker. How again does the stronger country impose rules on the weaker? The EU binds countries just like countries bind regions and cities. Why don't you complain about that? Well, because it is helpful if the government acts in the interest of the population. A required part of understanding the EU is letting go of irrational attachment to notions of nationalism. It is good that we have several governments working in our collective interest on many levels. Be it the city mayor, the regional government, the countrywide government or the European Commission.
        RobertoG 9y ago
        Tell that to the Greeks, where the "independent" Central European Bank, theoretically also the central bank of the Greeks, was used as a weapon against then. Tell that to the countries in the south that are financing the exports of the north and that have to implement crazy pro-cyclical economic policies. A part of understanding the European Union (and even more so the Eurozone) is letting go of fairy tales about how Realpolitik and national interest is dead. If you want a real union just create a fiscal union controlled by the European parliament, but that, it's not going to happen.
  - barrkel 9y ago
    It's removal to a higher level. Compromise of sovereignty is necessary for all cooperation. More and more cooperation requires extracting sovereignty to higher and higher levels.

Not really. Independence is an axis like any other, and trading it off in some areas can result in a greater benefit at the the scale of all members.

RobertoG 9y ago
It's a pity that, as the economic data shows, this is not the case.

barrkel 9y ago

Subsidiarity is a core principle of the EU, FWIW. There's another way to look at freedom: freedom from, rather than freedom to. Governments are generally instituted to ensure the former rather than the latter. They put restraints on some freedoms to increase other freedoms. Thus, for example, the specific standards that goods are produced to and services are provided at may be set centrally, removing freedom to vary at a local level, but adding freedom to sell across the whole union with very low barriers to trade (i.e. freedom from variance in standards). Since freedom to vary on standards at the local level frequently ends up with beggar-thy-neighbour policies, or anti-competitive regulations, it's not a bad trade.

RobertoG 9y ago
Freedom from democratic governance sounds like a suspicious kind of freedom to me.
- yorwba 9y ago
  EU officials are appointed either by the democratically elected governments of the member states of by the democratically elected European Parliament. Unless you reject all kinds of representative democracy, the EU seems pretty democratic to me. And most EU states are only democratic in the representative sense anyway.
  - RobertoG 9y ago
    In theory, but the reality of the issue is very different. The European Parliament is all powerful except for the important things. The real power is in the hands of the commission, which, in practice, it's not more than an international forum, where, as in all the international forums, the will of the stronger states is the law. The state members are bond by treaties that, in practice, are impossible to change by the population and that, in fact, are used to limit what the population could choose. In theory, the EU could be a democratic institution, but there is not the will for that, quite the opposite, in my opinion. The population is slowing awaking to those realities and the relevant institutions would do well addressing all those problems before is too late.
    - madez 9y ago
      While the commission is not directly elected by the people, it is indirectly. That is in accordance to how many governments are formed. Every country can send just one member of the commission. Decisions are made by majority vote. Every member has the same weight, except the president, which is a tie-breaker. How again does the stronger country impose rules on the weaker? The EU binds countries just like countries bind regions and cities. Why don't you complain about that? Well, because it is helpful if the government acts in the interest of the population. A required part of understanding the EU is letting go of irrational attachment to notions of nationalism. It is good that we have several governments working in our collective interest on many levels. Be it the city mayor, the regional government, the countrywide government or the European Commission.
      - RobertoG 9y ago
        Tell that to the Greeks, where the "independent" Central European Bank, theoretically also the central bank of the Greeks, was used as a weapon against then. Tell that to the countries in the south that are financing the exports of the north and that have to implement crazy pro-cyclical economic policies. A part of understanding the European Union (and even more so the Eurozone) is letting go of fairy tales about how Realpolitik and national interest is dead. If you want a real union just create a fiscal union controlled by the European parliament, but that, it's not going to happen.
- barrkel 9y ago
  It's removal to a higher level. Compromise of sovereignty is necessary for all cooperation. More and more cooperation requires extracting sovereignty to higher and higher levels.