5 ms·

Libertarians should, in principle, be okay with people exercising their personal freedom to form a union.

microcolonel 9y ago
Forming a union is no big deal, but if others don't have the right not to negotiate with or support that union by virtue of the type of work they're doing, it may as well be a government restriction on your right to pursue employment.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Why should you have a right to work at a particular place? The workers with a democratic process negotiated with the management. You’re not special. Why should your unwillingness to participate impact the rights of others who freely entered into an agreement?
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    > Why should you have a right to work at a particular place? Well, that's not what I said though. I said a right to pursue employment. That is, to be free to negotiate for an agreement with no forcible terms, to exchange something you have for something you want more than what you're exchanging.
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      You have that. You can take a job in a union shop and you’re able to pursue negotiations as part of the democratic process in the union. My colleague in a former job is in the middle of that right now, running for union office. Or you can go somewhere else. Whatever you’re negotiating yourself, 9/10 times you’re still an at will employee and really have no bargaining power. Individual negotiations for jobs are like buying a car — every dude is telling you how they beat the dealer. I’ve hired many many software people over the years and almost never leave a fairly narrow salary band — maybe 5% of cases. Offering a few percent over average is usually enough.
changoplatanero 9y ago
The issue is that people not in the union are not free to pursue their own negotiations.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  Libertarians usually say that everyone should be free to form contracts without government restriction. Why shouldn't unions get the same freedom to form binding contracts that everyone else gets?

Forming a union is no big deal, but if others don't have the right not to negotiate with or support that union by virtue of the type of work they're doing, it may as well be a government restriction on your right to pursue employment.

Spooky23 9y ago
Why should you have a right to work at a particular place? The workers with a democratic process negotiated with the management. You’re not special. Why should your unwillingness to participate impact the rights of others who freely entered into an agreement?
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > Why should you have a right to work at a particular place? Well, that's not what I said though. I said a right to pursue employment. That is, to be free to negotiate for an agreement with no forcible terms, to exchange something you have for something you want more than what you're exchanging.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    You have that. You can take a job in a union shop and you’re able to pursue negotiations as part of the democratic process in the union. My colleague in a former job is in the middle of that right now, running for union office. Or you can go somewhere else. Whatever you’re negotiating yourself, 9/10 times you’re still an at will employee and really have no bargaining power. Individual negotiations for jobs are like buying a car — every dude is telling you how they beat the dealer. I’ve hired many many software people over the years and almost never leave a fairly narrow salary band — maybe 5% of cases. Offering a few percent over average is usually enough.

changoplatanero 9y ago

The issue is that people not in the union are not free to pursue their own negotiations.

TheCoelacanth 9y ago
Libertarians usually say that everyone should be free to form contracts without government restriction. Why shouldn't unions get the same freedom to form binding contracts that everyone else gets?