6 ms·

I see no problem with game workers unionizing, but when I want to release my indie game on itch or steam and I am stopped because I have to pay dues to the unio

I see no problem with game workers unionizing, but when I want to release my indie game on itch or steam and I am stopped because I have to pay dues to the union, we'll have a very real and unfriendly discussion.

s2g 9y ago
> I see no problem with game workers unionizing yet you immediately come up with a completely made up problem.
lalaithion 9y ago
Film unions don't regulate indie films — hopefully this will be much the same.
- Stanleyc23 9y ago
  hmm, I would have assumed the writer's guild rules would still apply even if you're doing an indie film.
  - Elidrake24 9y ago
    You can apply for the Low Budget Agreement on an indie film (defined as being under a particular budget amount I couldn't find), but it isn't required if you are in the guild. It was mainly created to protect individuals from larger studios - can't imagine much benefit from leveraging what are essentially personal projects.
    - petee 9y ago
      IATSE Low Budget Theatrical Agreement sets a Tier-1 ("lowest"...their is a mythical tier-0, but its negotiated) for budgets under $6 million; Tier-2 is $6-10, and Tier-3 is $10-14 A Tier-1 has benefits such as $108/day toward healthcare, retirement. Pay rates in the range of $21-26/hr. That said, i know of plenty of super-low budget indies that are just too small to use the contract -- the union often doesn't mind, and union workers will still do these 'passion projects' because they love the work
- petee 9y ago
  Film unions don't regulate anything - 'indie' films can/do use union crews, although under a different contract that pays less according to budget. Large budget films use unions because we are the only ones skilled enough to do it properly & professionally; you just can't find 200 non-union to pull it off, not without someone getting hurt in the process, or having a terrible end result
zanny 9y ago
Nobody can force you to join a union. The scenario you describe only applies if Itch or Steam agree to only take game submissions from union members, which would just prompt non-union alternatives.
- tvanantwerp 9y ago
  Depending on your industry/employer, yes, you can be forced to join a union, or at least pay dues to it even if you're not a member.
  - rbobby 9y ago
    There's a case in front the US supreme court on this now. Basically union dues are currently split between an administrative category and a political category (my terms, can't recall what they're actually called). Administrative covers the costs arising from actual contract negotiation and enforcement. Political covers anything dealing with lobbying or advertising etc (eg. vote Bill Murray because he supports unions). Currently the political category fee does not have to be paid by non-union members (a free speech issue). The administrative category has to be paid by everyone covered by the contract whether union member or not. The case in front of the court is to stop making the administrative portion mandatory... somehow because of free speech. Personally I think it's a bit nutty. Someone that receives the benefits of collective bargaining but doesn't want to pay a cent towards the costs has got a screw lose. If the SC decides the admin fees are not mandatory then unions are going to have a tough time. If enough idiots opt out of membership the union will not be able to afford a solid contract negotiating team or even an enforcement team. This will let companies strike contracts that are much more in their favor. And presumably the employee's will blame the union and more will opt out... until the union is no longer financially viable. Let alone what it will do to union's lobbying and political efforts.
    - snuxoll 9y ago
      > If the SC decides the admin fees are not mandatory then unions are going to have a tough time. If enough idiots opt out of membership the union will not be able to afford a solid contract negotiating team or even an enforcement team. This will let companies strike contracts that are much more in their favor. And presumably the employee's will blame the union and more will opt out... until the union is no longer financially viable. Right-to-work legislation in a nutshell, and it worked.
EliRivers 9y ago
Many unions don't demand dues from other people just to work in the same industry. A lot of people here (not you particularly; just that I might as well say it somewhere) have a very stereotyped view of what a union does, seeing it as some kind of compulsory enforcer that ties its members hands and goes around stopping outsiders working. I can't speak for everywhere, but my experience of unions in the UK is very different. Maybe this union could be modeled on that kind of approach. There's also the German Betriebsräte style which looks really interesting. For an industry full of people that spout about disruption and how things are different and what new technology can do to empower people, there seems to be this picture of "unions" stuck inside people's heads that involves Jimmy Hoffa sending some thugs round to smash up your workshop because you sold product without going through the union, and large mafioso "encouraging" workers to join. At risk of massively generalising, that picture seems strongest inside the heads of our US colleagues; is the anti-union propaganda particularly effective there, or are the unions particularly stuck in that stereotypical Jimmy Hoffa style?
- DanBC 9y ago
  To be fair the UK had to introduce law to stop "closed shop" unions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop#United_Kingdom > All forms of closed shops in the UK are illegal following the introduction of the Employment Act 1990. They were further curtailed under section 137(1)(a) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52)[7] passed by the Conservative government at the time. The Labour Party, then in opposition, had supported closed shops until December 1989, when it abandoned the policy in accordance with European legislation.[8] However, Labour shadow arts minister Thangam Debbonaire announced to an Equity conference in May 2016 that she favoured the introduction of a "limited" closed shop for actors, as part of Jeremy Corbyn's pledge to strengthen and introduce a new package of employment rights beneficial to employees.[9] Equity was one of the last trade unions in the United Kingdom to offer a pre-entry closed shop until the 1990 act.[9]
  - EliRivers 9y ago
    Indeed; that's certainly how it was, but now we can have something better. That's the old way, which I certainly agree had to go, although even that didn't stop someone else working in the same industry. 1990 is well before my experience, but soon enough I expect to be telling people how I was there for the crash of September 2000, before they were born.

s2g 9y ago

> I see no problem with game workers unionizing yet you immediately come up with a completely made up problem.

lalaithion 9y ago

Film unions don't regulate indie films — hopefully this will be much the same.

Stanleyc23 9y ago
hmm, I would have assumed the writer's guild rules would still apply even if you're doing an indie film.
- Elidrake24 9y ago
  You can apply for the Low Budget Agreement on an indie film (defined as being under a particular budget amount I couldn't find), but it isn't required if you are in the guild. It was mainly created to protect individuals from larger studios - can't imagine much benefit from leveraging what are essentially personal projects.
  - petee 9y ago
    IATSE Low Budget Theatrical Agreement sets a Tier-1 ("lowest"...their is a mythical tier-0, but its negotiated) for budgets under $6 million; Tier-2 is $6-10, and Tier-3 is $10-14 A Tier-1 has benefits such as $108/day toward healthcare, retirement. Pay rates in the range of $21-26/hr. That said, i know of plenty of super-low budget indies that are just too small to use the contract -- the union often doesn't mind, and union workers will still do these 'passion projects' because they love the work
petee 9y ago
Film unions don't regulate anything - 'indie' films can/do use union crews, although under a different contract that pays less according to budget. Large budget films use unions because we are the only ones skilled enough to do it properly & professionally; you just can't find 200 non-union to pull it off, not without someone getting hurt in the process, or having a terrible end result

zanny 9y ago

Nobody can force you to join a union. The scenario you describe only applies if Itch or Steam agree to only take game submissions from union members, which would just prompt non-union alternatives.

tvanantwerp 9y ago
Depending on your industry/employer, yes, you can be forced to join a union, or at least pay dues to it even if you're not a member.
- rbobby 9y ago
  There's a case in front the US supreme court on this now. Basically union dues are currently split between an administrative category and a political category (my terms, can't recall what they're actually called). Administrative covers the costs arising from actual contract negotiation and enforcement. Political covers anything dealing with lobbying or advertising etc (eg. vote Bill Murray because he supports unions). Currently the political category fee does not have to be paid by non-union members (a free speech issue). The administrative category has to be paid by everyone covered by the contract whether union member or not. The case in front of the court is to stop making the administrative portion mandatory... somehow because of free speech. Personally I think it's a bit nutty. Someone that receives the benefits of collective bargaining but doesn't want to pay a cent towards the costs has got a screw lose. If the SC decides the admin fees are not mandatory then unions are going to have a tough time. If enough idiots opt out of membership the union will not be able to afford a solid contract negotiating team or even an enforcement team. This will let companies strike contracts that are much more in their favor. And presumably the employee's will blame the union and more will opt out... until the union is no longer financially viable. Let alone what it will do to union's lobbying and political efforts.
  - snuxoll 9y ago
    > If the SC decides the admin fees are not mandatory then unions are going to have a tough time. If enough idiots opt out of membership the union will not be able to afford a solid contract negotiating team or even an enforcement team. This will let companies strike contracts that are much more in their favor. And presumably the employee's will blame the union and more will opt out... until the union is no longer financially viable. Right-to-work legislation in a nutshell, and it worked.

EliRivers 9y ago

Many unions don't demand dues from other people just to work in the same industry. A lot of people here (not you particularly; just that I might as well say it somewhere) have a very stereotyped view of what a union does, seeing it as some kind of compulsory enforcer that ties its members hands and goes around stopping outsiders working. I can't speak for everywhere, but my experience of unions in the UK is very different. Maybe this union could be modeled on that kind of approach. There's also the German Betriebsräte style which looks really interesting. For an industry full of people that spout about disruption and how things are different and what new technology can do to empower people, there seems to be this picture of "unions" stuck inside people's heads that involves Jimmy Hoffa sending some thugs round to smash up your workshop because you sold product without going through the union, and large mafioso "encouraging" workers to join. At risk of massively generalising, that picture seems strongest inside the heads of our US colleagues; is the anti-union propaganda particularly effective there, or are the unions particularly stuck in that stereotypical Jimmy Hoffa style?

DanBC 9y ago
To be fair the UK had to introduce law to stop "closed shop" unions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop#United_Kingdom > All forms of closed shops in the UK are illegal following the introduction of the Employment Act 1990. They were further curtailed under section 137(1)(a) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52)[7] passed by the Conservative government at the time. The Labour Party, then in opposition, had supported closed shops until December 1989, when it abandoned the policy in accordance with European legislation.[8] However, Labour shadow arts minister Thangam Debbonaire announced to an Equity conference in May 2016 that she favoured the introduction of a "limited" closed shop for actors, as part of Jeremy Corbyn's pledge to strengthen and introduce a new package of employment rights beneficial to employees.[9] Equity was one of the last trade unions in the United Kingdom to offer a pre-entry closed shop until the 1990 act.[9]
- EliRivers 9y ago
  Indeed; that's certainly how it was, but now we can have something better. That's the old way, which I certainly agree had to go, although even that didn't stop someone else working in the same industry. 1990 is well before my experience, but soon enough I expect to be telling people how I was there for the crash of September 2000, before they were born.