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I wish there was one good messenger. Signal can't be it, because not federated, uses phone number. Riot can't be it because network effects. Google and facebook

by Y_Y 9y ago

I wish there was one good messenger. Signal can't be it, because not federated, uses phone number. Riot can't be it because network effects. Google and facebook are abominable. WhatsApp and telegram are worse versions of signal. Who will save us from this efficient market competition? (a previous version of this comment incorrectly claimed signal was closed-source)

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mtreis86 9y ago
I thought signal was open source? "Signal is developed by a software group called Open Whisper Systems.[123] The group is funded by a combination of donations and grants,[124] and all of its products are published as free and open-source software." -wiki
asdsa5325 9y ago
Signal is open source? https://github.com/signalapp https://github.com/signalapp
- Y_Y 9y ago
  Just having a GitHub doesn't make you open-source. All the same it looks like I was wrong, and they are open now. They previously required clsed-source components for voice and video afaik.
Jedd 9y ago
> Riot can't be it because network effects. You seem to be listing different criteria for each of the reasons you dismiss the various alternatives -- the reason against Riot / Matrix is not at all like the other (reasons), and is a bit self-defeating.
- Y_Y 9y ago
  I love Riot, and I''d be delighted for it to become popular. I'd also be shocked. They don't have the media-savvy or corporate power I suppose.
andrepd 9y ago
>Signal can't be it, because closed-source, Wrong, both clients and server are open-source. >not federated, This is intentional. See https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ >uses phone number. I think this is for the best. This means you can seamlessly add contacts you already have on your phonebook to Signal. No need for emails or separate user accounts. If you're worried about this, you can buy a prepaid SIM card for pennies, or use an online service. It's not an issue.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  The matter of federation is by no means settled. Many experts do not agree with Signal's conclusions and suspect ulterior motives, myself included. It is open source, though, but Moxie has definitely made decisions that are harmful to open source. Again, ulterior motives may be at play.
  - davidgu 9y ago
    I feel that it's unlikely that ulterior motives are in place, given that Signal's core user base consists of privacy conscious folks, thereby preventing an easy pivot towards a closed ecosystem once critical mass is reached. It's likely that if this were attempted, someone would just fork Signal, with support for some kind of decentralization, and split the user base in two. However moxie seems to have an outdated form of federation in mind when he gives examples of IRC and email. While it is true that these technologies have been quite rigid, there are other examples of distributed technologies that are quite flexible in implementation. Bitcoin and Mastodon are examples where changes and updates are pushed through regularly. The determining factor seems to be the amount of control the principal developer holds over the ecosystem. Mastodon instances basically all run the same code, and (mostly) everyone is happy with the direction they are going. Thus, Eugen pushes a new release, everyone runs it, and protocol changes can propagate throughout the network. Old nodes get left behind. However, say Eugen (or Signal) massively screws up, and they get forked. Now, any protocol changes must be adopted by both camps (who by definition have differing philosophies) to be fully applied.
mxuribe 9y ago
I'm sure someone years ago said the same of facebook back when friendster was on the decline (not assuming Fb is on decline here, just sayin'). But have you really used or even seriously considered riot/matrix? There are so many vibrant communities! Do you feel that such communities are not worth your time unless they are visited by at least millions of users? Not trying to be facetious, merely a rhetorical question. I suggest you try other things, yes riot/matrix, but also other platforms...who knows, perhaps you will find satisfaction in smaller communities...then you tell YOUR friends, and then they gravitate to those other platforms, and boom you have your network effect - at least to your satisfaction. Again, not trying to be facetious...just trying to nudge you to push beyond the "normal", and hopefully find a good, satisfying alternative to the proprietary silos (like facebook, twitter, etc.).
cyphar 9y ago
> Riot can't be it because network effects. This isn't a reasonable rejection of Matrix / Riot. Every time you want to move a lot of people, you need to have network effects in order to make it work. I believe that Matrix / Riot are going to be the best way going forward if you want something that is accessible, is actually privacy preserving in many ways, and doesn't require lock-in. Same goes for ActivityPub / Mastodon, which has a real possibility to replace ordinary social media with a federated system that is privacy-preserving in similar ways (with the note that we need to have some large instances people can use -- similar to how many people use the main Matrix instance).
- Y_Y 9y ago
  I agree with you completely. As I mentioned in a cousin-comment, I think Riot is probably missing non-technical aspects that it takes to go mainstream. I'd love to be shown otherwise though.
zhte415 9y ago
A service requiring a telephone number for registration verification cannot deliver on security. Spoofing 2FA is a thing. Trawling contact lists creates implication where a bad agent is one. This is how it seems, I may be wrong. Anonymous unfederated secure communication via email or other methods... PGP/GPG remains unfriendly.

by Y_Y 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

mtreis86 9y ago

I thought signal was open source? "Signal is developed by a software group called Open Whisper Systems.[123] The group is funded by a combination of donations and grants,[124] and all of its products are published as free and open-source software." -wiki

asdsa5325 9y ago

Signal is open source? https://github.com/signalapp https://github.com/signalapp

Y_Y 9y ago
Just having a GitHub doesn't make you open-source. All the same it looks like I was wrong, and they are open now. They previously required clsed-source components for voice and video afaik.

Jedd 9y ago

> Riot can't be it because network effects. You seem to be listing different criteria for each of the reasons you dismiss the various alternatives -- the reason against Riot / Matrix is not at all like the other (reasons), and is a bit self-defeating.

Y_Y 9y ago
I love Riot, and I''d be delighted for it to become popular. I'd also be shocked. They don't have the media-savvy or corporate power I suppose.

andrepd 9y ago

>Signal can't be it, because closed-source, Wrong, both clients and server are open-source. >not federated, This is intentional. See https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ >uses phone number. I think this is for the best. This means you can seamlessly add contacts you already have on your phonebook to Signal. No need for emails or separate user accounts. If you're worried about this, you can buy a prepaid SIM card for pennies, or use an online service. It's not an issue.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
The matter of federation is by no means settled. Many experts do not agree with Signal's conclusions and suspect ulterior motives, myself included. It is open source, though, but Moxie has definitely made decisions that are harmful to open source. Again, ulterior motives may be at play.
- davidgu 9y ago
  I feel that it's unlikely that ulterior motives are in place, given that Signal's core user base consists of privacy conscious folks, thereby preventing an easy pivot towards a closed ecosystem once critical mass is reached. It's likely that if this were attempted, someone would just fork Signal, with support for some kind of decentralization, and split the user base in two. However moxie seems to have an outdated form of federation in mind when he gives examples of IRC and email. While it is true that these technologies have been quite rigid, there are other examples of distributed technologies that are quite flexible in implementation. Bitcoin and Mastodon are examples where changes and updates are pushed through regularly. The determining factor seems to be the amount of control the principal developer holds over the ecosystem. Mastodon instances basically all run the same code, and (mostly) everyone is happy with the direction they are going. Thus, Eugen pushes a new release, everyone runs it, and protocol changes can propagate throughout the network. Old nodes get left behind. However, say Eugen (or Signal) massively screws up, and they get forked. Now, any protocol changes must be adopted by both camps (who by definition have differing philosophies) to be fully applied.

mxuribe 9y ago

I'm sure someone years ago said the same of facebook back when friendster was on the decline (not assuming Fb is on decline here, just sayin'). But have you really used or even seriously considered riot/matrix? There are so many vibrant communities! Do you feel that such communities are not worth your time unless they are visited by at least millions of users? Not trying to be facetious, merely a rhetorical question. I suggest you try other things, yes riot/matrix, but also other platforms...who knows, perhaps you will find satisfaction in smaller communities...then you tell YOUR friends, and then they gravitate to those other platforms, and boom you have your network effect - at least to your satisfaction. Again, not trying to be facetious...just trying to nudge you to push beyond the "normal", and hopefully find a good, satisfying alternative to the proprietary silos (like facebook, twitter, etc.).

cyphar 9y ago

> Riot can't be it because network effects. This isn't a reasonable rejection of Matrix / Riot. Every time you want to move a lot of people, you need to have network effects in order to make it work. I believe that Matrix / Riot are going to be the best way going forward if you want something that is accessible, is actually privacy preserving in many ways, and doesn't require lock-in. Same goes for ActivityPub / Mastodon, which has a real possibility to replace ordinary social media with a federated system that is privacy-preserving in similar ways (with the note that we need to have some large instances people can use -- similar to how many people use the main Matrix instance).

Y_Y 9y ago
I agree with you completely. As I mentioned in a cousin-comment, I think Riot is probably missing non-technical aspects that it takes to go mainstream. I'd love to be shown otherwise though.

zhte415 9y ago

A service requiring a telephone number for registration verification cannot deliver on security. Spoofing 2FA is a thing. Trawling contact lists creates implication where a bad agent is one. This is how it seems, I may be wrong. Anonymous unfederated secure communication via email or other methods... PGP/GPG remains unfriendly.