5 ms·

I'm not a lawyer, but HN is not established (AFAIK) in the EU, and while it has EU users, it likely does not meet the threshold of actively offering goods or se

by cedsav 9y ago

I'm not a lawyer, but HN is not established (AFAIK) in the EU, and while it has EU users, it likely does not meet the threshold of actively offering goods or services to EU residents. Being accessible from the EU in itself isn't sufficient to trigger the GDPR.

huac 9y ago
my understanding is that these conditions apply to people in the EU, i.e. that EU residents must be able to delete their content from HN (but HN has no obligation to non-EU residents)
- cedsav 9y ago
  I haven't researched that particular point, but I'm not sure that your HN comments qualify as "personal data" under the GDPR (they'd need to personally identify you).
  - mziel 9y ago
    IP addresses are identified as personal data in GDPR. They're not exposed in the frontend, but HN might use them e.g. for logging. Also things like deletion, takeout and consent/opt-out need to be supported (provided that HN falls under GDPR).
  - M2Ys4U 9y ago
    "Personal data" is defined quite broadly in the GDPR: Article 4 states ‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person
    - bostik 9y ago
      I just read a pretty interesting white paper (written by a compliance law firm) about data anonymisation and pseudonymisation with regards to GDPR. It provided a really neat ballpark of data that constitutes "user information" on two separate levels. Direct identifiers include such material as: name, address, phone number, all kinds of national identifiers, biometrics, device identifiers and clinical trial record numbers. Indirect (or "quasi-direct", a new word for me) include: gender, date of birth, postal codes or other geographic grouping identifiers, first language at home, marital status, ethnicity, .... --- If you look at the two groups, there's a pretty clear distinction. Anything that would allow to send a highly personalised communication to a person is direct. Anything that allows to target marketing cohorts is indirect. The indirect ones may not sound important on the surface, but once you start doing group intersections, their combinations can become extremely narrow pointers.
- akerl_ 9y ago
  How would EU law compel a non-EU entity to delete content based on the residency of the user? As an example of the opposite state, where this does definitely apply: Tarsnap complies with Canadian law around collecting names/addresses for users who are located in Canada, because Tarsnap is operated as a Canadian business. But if Tarsnap were located in the US, it would not be responsible for collecting that information from Canadian users.
  - madez 9y ago
    > But if Tarsnap were located in the US, it would not be responsible for collecting that information from Canadian users. Responsibility is not defined by gut-feelings, but by law. So, with a suited law, Tarsnap could also be bound in Canada's jurisdiction even if it were located in the US.
    - akerl_ 9y ago
      I'm not sure where you derived your comment about gut-feelings from. Do you have an example of precedent for one country's laws being enforced on a company with no business presence in that country, without there being a law or treaty in a country the business does operate in that mandates compliance with the foreign law? I don't think anyone would dispute that if the US were to make a law requiring US companies to comply with the GDPR for EU users, that law would apply to US companies. My point is that absent some measure by the US government, EU laws are not applicable to companies without business presence in the EU
      - madez 9y ago
        > My point is that absent some measure by the US government, EU laws are not applicable to companies without business presence in the EU They are applicable if they say they are applicable. Effective enforceability is optional to applicability. The case is pretty simple in my eyes. We have separate, sovereign jurisdictions and governments. They can do about anything they want, if they have the means to do so and aren't bound by some treaty or law. For example, they can take legal or executive measures against anybody in the world, and it is irrelevant if that person agrees or disagrees. In fact, in the first place, it is also irrelevant what position the sovereign of that entity takes. Now, can each sovereign entity enforce what they have decided? Well, that depends on many factors, but is optional to their decision. The sovereign we are dealing with here is the EU. They can, within the bounds by their law and international treaties, judge and take measures against entities not residing under their jurisdiction. Who's stopping them? See for example the sanctions on Russian officials currently imposed by the EU. The EU has many tools to enforce it's decisions. I don't see what's the difficulty of understanding this situation, besides not agreeing with it.
- sebazzz 9y ago
  Yes, but you need to explicitly target the EU. What that exactly means will be determined will eventually be determined in court, but some examples: - If you offer your products in Euros, which is the currency in most of the EU - If you offer payment methods which only exist in the EU or one of its members - Otherwise suggest you target EU citizens Hacker News exists as a generic website on the internet, but it does not to target any country or region specifically. Therefore HN should be exempt from the legislation.
  - madez 9y ago
    That is incorrect. You don't need to specifically target the EU. If you handle data from European citizens, the GDPR applies to you.
    - madez 9y ago
      I'm baffled. Why the downvotes? See for applicability: https://gdpr-info.eu/art-3-gdpr/ https://gdpr-info.eu/art-3-gdpr/ Also, in the case of HN, YC offers a service. Just like a forum is a service, this discussion and news platform is a service. It's irrelevant if it's paid for or free.
      - mdekkers 9y ago
        I'm baffled. Why the downvotes? Because HN is now like Reddit, but for techno-snobs. If you don't follow the tightly defined groupthink, you'll get downvoted. Many years of discussion groups have proven that downvoting has a chilling effect on discussion groups. Allow upvotes, and "spam" flags.
ddebernardy 9y ago
There are cases out there, like LICRA vs Yahoo! [1] that could suggest otherwise. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LICRA_v._Yahoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LICRA_v._Yahoo!
- cedsav 9y ago
  I'm not sure how this case suggests otherwise, but Yahoo is not HN/YCombinator, and Yahoo is most definitely impacted by the GDPR.
billconan 9y ago
please read: https://blog.axeptio.eu/en/2018/03/20/gdpr-and-united-states/ https://blog.axeptio.eu/en/2018/03/20/gdpr-and-united-states...
- dmix 9y ago
  I wonder how this applies to SESTA/FOSTA, as many escort listing sites are apparently already operating from overseas.
- ubercow13 9y ago
  >Does your online activity lead you to sell goods or services in the European Union? HN is not selling anything
  - Erlangolem 9y ago
    HN is selling HN, their associated startups, job postings, and so on. Edit: who are they selling to? Would-be founders... you understand how the VC model works, right?
    - HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
      ? Who are they selling it to?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - madez 9y ago
    YC does not need to sell anything. HN is a service offered by YC: a news and discussion platform service.
agotterer 9y ago
I'm not a lawyer either, but have been going through the GDPR process at my job. It doesn't matter if you operate or are established in the EU. If you have EU visitors/users they gain the protections of the GDPR and you have to comply. GDPR affects any org/site that collects personal or sensitive data. Amongst many others IP address and email address are considered PII under GDPR. We use IP address for some high level geolocation data and decided to drop the last octet so it's not tied directly to an individual visitor. The specialists we spoke with had concerns about free form input fields because anyone can write anything they want in them. In the case of hackernews it seems like email address, ip, profiles, and comments could contain personally identifiable data. I'm also curious how HN similar sites are supposed to comply with GDPR removal requests when it can destroy the usability and functionality of the site.
- brightball 9y ago
  I'm very interested to see how such requests would actually work...mainly because I'm curious to see what actual authority the EU has to enforce its laws outside of its borders. I understand it applying to companies that are doing business in Europe but beyond that...?
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    There's a plenty of measures the EU could take within it's jurisdiction to enforce it's laws around the world. It might suck if the EU started blocking payments to you.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  In the case of hackernews it seems like email address, ip, profiles, and comments could contain personally identifiable data. You aren't required to put anything in the profile. If you choose to put information in the profile, you can remove it yourself at any time you so choose.

by cedsav 9y ago

huac 9y ago

my understanding is that these conditions apply to people in the EU, i.e. that EU residents must be able to delete their content from HN (but HN has no obligation to non-EU residents)

cedsav 9y ago
I haven't researched that particular point, but I'm not sure that your HN comments qualify as "personal data" under the GDPR (they'd need to personally identify you).
- mziel 9y ago
  IP addresses are identified as personal data in GDPR. They're not exposed in the frontend, but HN might use them e.g. for logging. Also things like deletion, takeout and consent/opt-out need to be supported (provided that HN falls under GDPR).
- M2Ys4U 9y ago
  "Personal data" is defined quite broadly in the GDPR: Article 4 states ‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person
  - bostik 9y ago
    I just read a pretty interesting white paper (written by a compliance law firm) about data anonymisation and pseudonymisation with regards to GDPR. It provided a really neat ballpark of data that constitutes "user information" on two separate levels. Direct identifiers include such material as: name, address, phone number, all kinds of national identifiers, biometrics, device identifiers and clinical trial record numbers. Indirect (or "quasi-direct", a new word for me) include: gender, date of birth, postal codes or other geographic grouping identifiers, first language at home, marital status, ethnicity, .... --- If you look at the two groups, there's a pretty clear distinction. Anything that would allow to send a highly personalised communication to a person is direct. Anything that allows to target marketing cohorts is indirect. The indirect ones may not sound important on the surface, but once you start doing group intersections, their combinations can become extremely narrow pointers.
akerl_ 9y ago
How would EU law compel a non-EU entity to delete content based on the residency of the user? As an example of the opposite state, where this does definitely apply: Tarsnap complies with Canadian law around collecting names/addresses for users who are located in Canada, because Tarsnap is operated as a Canadian business. But if Tarsnap were located in the US, it would not be responsible for collecting that information from Canadian users.
- madez 9y ago
  > But if Tarsnap were located in the US, it would not be responsible for collecting that information from Canadian users. Responsibility is not defined by gut-feelings, but by law. So, with a suited law, Tarsnap could also be bound in Canada's jurisdiction even if it were located in the US.
  - akerl_ 9y ago
    I'm not sure where you derived your comment about gut-feelings from. Do you have an example of precedent for one country's laws being enforced on a company with no business presence in that country, without there being a law or treaty in a country the business does operate in that mandates compliance with the foreign law? I don't think anyone would dispute that if the US were to make a law requiring US companies to comply with the GDPR for EU users, that law would apply to US companies. My point is that absent some measure by the US government, EU laws are not applicable to companies without business presence in the EU
    - madez 9y ago
      > My point is that absent some measure by the US government, EU laws are not applicable to companies without business presence in the EU They are applicable if they say they are applicable. Effective enforceability is optional to applicability. The case is pretty simple in my eyes. We have separate, sovereign jurisdictions and governments. They can do about anything they want, if they have the means to do so and aren't bound by some treaty or law. For example, they can take legal or executive measures against anybody in the world, and it is irrelevant if that person agrees or disagrees. In fact, in the first place, it is also irrelevant what position the sovereign of that entity takes. Now, can each sovereign entity enforce what they have decided? Well, that depends on many factors, but is optional to their decision. The sovereign we are dealing with here is the EU. They can, within the bounds by their law and international treaties, judge and take measures against entities not residing under their jurisdiction. Who's stopping them? See for example the sanctions on Russian officials currently imposed by the EU. The EU has many tools to enforce it's decisions. I don't see what's the difficulty of understanding this situation, besides not agreeing with it.
sebazzz 9y ago
Yes, but you need to explicitly target the EU. What that exactly means will be determined will eventually be determined in court, but some examples: - If you offer your products in Euros, which is the currency in most of the EU - If you offer payment methods which only exist in the EU or one of its members - Otherwise suggest you target EU citizens Hacker News exists as a generic website on the internet, but it does not to target any country or region specifically. Therefore HN should be exempt from the legislation.
- madez 9y ago
  That is incorrect. You don't need to specifically target the EU. If you handle data from European citizens, the GDPR applies to you.
  - madez 9y ago
    I'm baffled. Why the downvotes? See for applicability: https://gdpr-info.eu/art-3-gdpr/ https://gdpr-info.eu/art-3-gdpr/ Also, in the case of HN, YC offers a service. Just like a forum is a service, this discussion and news platform is a service. It's irrelevant if it's paid for or free.
    - mdekkers 9y ago
      I'm baffled. Why the downvotes? Because HN is now like Reddit, but for techno-snobs. If you don't follow the tightly defined groupthink, you'll get downvoted. Many years of discussion groups have proven that downvoting has a chilling effect on discussion groups. Allow upvotes, and "spam" flags.

ddebernardy 9y ago

There are cases out there, like LICRA vs Yahoo! [1] that could suggest otherwise. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LICRA_v._Yahoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LICRA_v._Yahoo!

cedsav 9y ago
I'm not sure how this case suggests otherwise, but Yahoo is not HN/YCombinator, and Yahoo is most definitely impacted by the GDPR.

billconan 9y ago

please read: https://blog.axeptio.eu/en/2018/03/20/gdpr-and-united-states/ https://blog.axeptio.eu/en/2018/03/20/gdpr-and-united-states...

dmix 9y ago
I wonder how this applies to SESTA/FOSTA, as many escort listing sites are apparently already operating from overseas.
ubercow13 9y ago
>Does your online activity lead you to sell goods or services in the European Union? HN is not selling anything
- Erlangolem 9y ago
  HN is selling HN, their associated startups, job postings, and so on. Edit: who are they selling to? Would-be founders... you understand how the VC model works, right?
  - HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
    ? Who are they selling it to?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- madez 9y ago
  YC does not need to sell anything. HN is a service offered by YC: a news and discussion platform service.

agotterer 9y ago

I'm not a lawyer either, but have been going through the GDPR process at my job. It doesn't matter if you operate or are established in the EU. If you have EU visitors/users they gain the protections of the GDPR and you have to comply. GDPR affects any org/site that collects personal or sensitive data. Amongst many others IP address and email address are considered PII under GDPR. We use IP address for some high level geolocation data and decided to drop the last octet so it's not tied directly to an individual visitor. The specialists we spoke with had concerns about free form input fields because anyone can write anything they want in them. In the case of hackernews it seems like email address, ip, profiles, and comments could contain personally identifiable data. I'm also curious how HN similar sites are supposed to comply with GDPR removal requests when it can destroy the usability and functionality of the site.

brightball 9y ago
I'm very interested to see how such requests would actually work...mainly because I'm curious to see what actual authority the EU has to enforce its laws outside of its borders. I understand it applying to companies that are doing business in Europe but beyond that...?
- ryanlol 9y ago
  There's a plenty of measures the EU could take within it's jurisdiction to enforce it's laws around the world. It might suck if the EU started blocking payments to you.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
DoreenMichele 9y ago
In the case of hackernews it seems like email address, ip, profiles, and comments could contain personally identifiable data. You aren't required to put anything in the profile. If you choose to put information in the profile, you can remove it yourself at any time you so choose.