3 ms·

It should be noted that enlightenment era ideals failed to include many classes of the members of homosapiens. Enough credit is not given to those classes who a

by yedava 9y ago

It should be noted that enlightenment era ideals failed to include many classes of the members of homosapiens. Enough credit is not given to those classes who actually fixed the ideals and made them what they are today - universally applicable rights and principles. Slaves had to prove they are humans by spilling their own blood and lives. Women had to prove that they are capable of participating in a democracy and they deserve same rights as men. Colonial subjects had to prove they deserve autonomy, again by suffering violence. Because these members of these groups have remained mostly unknown, haven't we taken the lazy path of showering praise on some specific eras, and some specific set of intellectuals whose writings have been recorded? So how justified is Pinker on laying the foundations of progress on the enlightenment era norms?

smogcutter 9y ago
Bingo. Almost as if a philosophy of property rights and political autonomy for the white male bourgeoisie is a byproduct of the rise of the bourgeoisie as an economic class, rather than its cause.
michaelkeenan 9y ago
If we trace an idea (like abolition or gender equality) back to its beginnings, we'd expect to find that the idea was controversial. It must take time for an idea to persuade people, even others of the same movement (who might be primarily focused on other aspects of the movement). So I think it can make sense to praise Enlightenment-era anti-slavery thinkers and attribute their anti-slavery to their ideals (especially if that's their explicit reasoning), even if not every Enlightenment thinker was anti-slavery. Wikipedia's article on the Age of Enlightenment lists eight major figures[1]. Of those, four are notable for their opposition to slavery[2]. That method shows less support for gender equality being traceable to the Enlightenment. As far as I can tell, none of the eight major figures supported gender equality. A few of Wikipedia's longer list of Enlightenment intellectuals[3] did (e.g. Marquis de Condorcet, John Locke and Mary Wollstonecraft). If they were the first-ever feminists on the path that led to modern feminism, that's evidence that Enlightenment ideals sparked that. But if the base rate of feminist thinkers was similar in the period before the Enlightenment, then it wouldn't appear that the Enlightenment helped. I don't know the answer to that, though for what it's worth, the Wikipedia article on the history of feminism[4] has a whole section called 18th century: the Age of Enlightenment, so it seems that the writers of that article thought the Enlightenment was relevant. [1] Beccaria, Diderot, Hume, Kant, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Adam Smith, and Voltaire - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment [2] Montesquieu, Rousseau, Adam Smith, and Voltaire [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intellectuals_of_the_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intellectuals_of_the_E... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism#18th_century:_the_Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism#18th_centu...

by yedava 9y ago

smogcutter 9y ago

Bingo. Almost as if a philosophy of property rights and political autonomy for the white male bourgeoisie is a byproduct of the rise of the bourgeoisie as an economic class, rather than its cause.

michaelkeenan 9y ago

If we trace an idea (like abolition or gender equality) back to its beginnings, we'd expect to find that the idea was controversial. It must take time for an idea to persuade people, even others of the same movement (who might be primarily focused on other aspects of the movement). So I think it can make sense to praise Enlightenment-era anti-slavery thinkers and attribute their anti-slavery to their ideals (especially if that's their explicit reasoning), even if not every Enlightenment thinker was anti-slavery. Wikipedia's article on the Age of Enlightenment lists eight major figures[1]. Of those, four are notable for their opposition to slavery[2]. That method shows less support for gender equality being traceable to the Enlightenment. As far as I can tell, none of the eight major figures supported gender equality. A few of Wikipedia's longer list of Enlightenment intellectuals[3] did (e.g. Marquis de Condorcet, John Locke and Mary Wollstonecraft). If they were the first-ever feminists on the path that led to modern feminism, that's evidence that Enlightenment ideals sparked that. But if the base rate of feminist thinkers was similar in the period before the Enlightenment, then it wouldn't appear that the Enlightenment helped. I don't know the answer to that, though for what it's worth, the Wikipedia article on the history of feminism[4] has a whole section called 18th century: the Age of Enlightenment, so it seems that the writers of that article thought the Enlightenment was relevant. [1] Beccaria, Diderot, Hume, Kant, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Adam Smith, and Voltaire - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment [2] Montesquieu, Rousseau, Adam Smith, and Voltaire [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intellectuals_of_the_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intellectuals_of_the_E... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism#18th_century:_the_Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism#18th_centu...